Author Topic: Mary Rose Replica Bow Build-Along--An Entrance into the World of War Bows  (Read 227174 times)

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duffontap

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Re: Mary Rose Replica Bow Build-Along--An Entrance into the World of War Bows
« Reply #15 on: November 01, 2006, 06:48:43 pm »
Thanks everyone--Step #3 Soon.

Fred:  Osage is a great alternative.  The only reason I didn't mention it was that I was late getting home from the office last night.  Oops.  There are Texas Osage war bows being shot in England right now. 

Marlon:  Thanks for the workout routine.  I'm hitting the weights hard and my rotator cuffs feel stronger already.  I'm pulling a solid 90+ right now.  I'll post those shoulder workouts on this thread in a couple days.  This war bow is more fun than I have ever had building a bow.

Badger:  Glad you're coming along on your project, too.  I wanted to mention:  This is a build-along--please feel free to post pictures of your own war bow progress on this thread!

Thimo:  Glad your hanging here.

Mark:  That just goes to show how hard information is to come by on this subject.  The 'all Yew' statement has been published so many times I didn't even question it.  Thanks for the info! 



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Offline Justin Snyder

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Re: Mary Rose Replica Bow Build-Along--An Entrance into the World of War Bows
« Reply #16 on: November 01, 2006, 07:36:46 pm »
You got me aching to try one now J.D..  Good thread keep it up. Thanks Justin
Everything happens for a reason, sometimes the reason is you made a bad decision.


SW Utah

Jaro

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Re: Mary Rose Replica Bow Build-Along--An Entrance into the World of War Bows
« Reply #17 on: November 02, 2006, 06:13:59 am »
Mark who told you that some werent yew? I know about single non yew medievall english bow supposedly in wallace collection.
I wouldnt trust Pip in this as he has been caught bullshiting more than once.

Jaro

Offline Kviljo

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Re: Mary Rose Replica Bow Build-Along--An Entrance into the World of War Bows
« Reply #18 on: November 02, 2006, 06:39:30 am »
Very interesting thread! The video with Stanley is just awesome, it inspired me to finish my little 80# warbow, and I'm currently waiting for the moisture to drop in a 1 3/5" wide roughed out european yew warbow. I don't think the ballistic-test in the video is anywhere near realistic, but it sure illustrates the capability.

I've heard rumours say that the inventory-list of Mary Rose both listed yew and elm bows, but only the bows from yew were found. Elm is of course much mure perishable than yew. Don't know where this info came from originally though.

Offline Marc St Louis

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Re: Mary Rose Replica Bow Build-Along--An Entrance into the World of War Bows
« Reply #19 on: November 02, 2006, 07:59:18 am »
Nice thread

The bow I made Marlon is 71" long overall.
Home of heat-treating, Corbeil, On.  Canada

Marc@Ironwoodbowyer.com

duffontap

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Re: Mary Rose Replica Bow Build-Along--An Entrance into the World of War Bows
« Reply #20 on: November 02, 2006, 02:42:10 pm »
Internet was down here last night in medieval Oregon.  Step Three follows.

Jaro--I never did say anything about the laminated stave alternative, would you be willing to post a pic of that tri-laminated war bow you posted a while back?


duffontap

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Step Three: Deciding on the Draw Weight.
« Reply #21 on: November 02, 2006, 02:55:59 pm »
Hello Again,

The draw knife is shaving hair, the spoke shave is adjusted to take translucent shavings and the sweet aroma of air-dried Yew is on the air.  Somewhere out there, under a dry thatched roof, there is nervous talk of war…

Step Three:  Choosing a Draw Weight.

One of the most defining characteristics of the medieval war bow was its uniquely high draw weight.  Just how high that draw weight was has been a matter of conjecture among archers, bowyers and historians and will likely be disputed long into the future.  Estimates start as low as about 80# and go as high as 180# or more. 

Arguments for low draw weight (100 lbs. or less):
1. For the most part, medieval war bows were goverment-issued equipment.  Government quantities of production usually lead to standardization and the Mary Rose bows reflected this.  For example, the tips were all exactly 12 mm (about 31/64”) and at one time, they all had horn nocks.  If the government were issuing bows to peasant archers (often, but not always the case), every archer would be expected to be able to draw any bow, and not everyone can draw 150# bows.  Thus, the bows would be tailored to the lowest common denominator. 
2. The nocks on the arrows found on the Mary rose all have 1/8” slots.  A hemp or linen string that would fit this size of nock would not last long on a 100# bow, and may not even last one shot on a 180# bow.  Bows often break when their strings break, so it is unlikely that a 120+ pound bow would be a practical weapon if it was constantly breaking strings (or breaking).
3. 100# bows shoot very nearly as far as 150# bows.  For the extra cost in broken strings and broken bows, 20 yards of extra cast may not be enough to have tempted the medievals. 
4. Using the same quality of wood, and the average English war bow pattern, a 150# bow is much more likely to break than a 100# bow.  Medieval archers, bowyers and kings would have known this and wouldn’t have pushed the limits more than necessary.

Arguments for high draw weight (120 lbs. or more):
1. Medieval arms race:  thicker armor leads to heavier bows, which leads to thicker armor, which leads to heavier bows…
2. Even if a 150# bow doesn’t shoot much farther than a 100# bow, it still shoots farther!  An extra 20 yards of cast could conceivably win the day.
3. ‘Just because we can’t make a linen or hemp string that is strong enough for a 150# bow and still fits a 1/8” nock doesn’t mean that they couldn’t.’  (That is, there was an ancient skill that is lost to us).
4. Replica bows that are made from the same materials as the originals, and to the same dimensions as the originals tend to be well over 120 lbs.  Some would even say that you can’t make a replica to the same dimensions without going over 120#.
5. Since the people who were using war bows were being trained from youth, there is good reason to believe that they could work into very heavy bows by the time they are ready for military action.  That is, 150# is not too much to pull for a medieval farm boy who had been shooting since infancy.

Personally, I like to think that the original bows were between 100 and 150 lbs.  That’s mostly based on bowyers’ intuition.  I think the arguments on either side are compelling enough to justify taking sides, but bowyers’ intuition will not be absent when sides are taken.  Pip Bickerstaffe has recently published an essay (In book form, titled Medieval War Bows—pictured below) on why he thinks the Mary Rose bows were about 100# +/- a couple pounds. 



Pip is no slouch and he has done his homework.  There are others who, with equal education, choose higher weights.  Even one of Pip’s own replicas was longer and thinner than the average Mary Rose bows and draws 115# (Pictured below being shot by Steve Stratton).



I have chosen a draw weight of 100 lbs. for my first attempt at a war bow.  I have done this for several reasons:
1. That is a weight I’ll be able to work into quickly.
2. I’m not using the best stave, and I don’t want to exceed the limits of my materials.
3. I can always build a heavier bow later—right now I'm in it to survive.

So my friends, take an honest assessment of your materials, flex your arms in front of the mirror, and dream of heavy bows and battles won.

Until tomorrow then…

Matti

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Re: Mary Rose Replica Bow Build-Along--An Entrance into the World of War Bows
« Reply #22 on: November 02, 2006, 04:42:45 pm »
Good topic!!

Some images from the past...


Offline Badger

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Re: Mary Rose Replica Bow Build-Along--An Entrance into the World of War Bows
« Reply #23 on: November 02, 2006, 04:57:13 pm »
Well, I got my erc on the tiller tree today and judging by some handle flex I am getting about the most i will get is 75# unless i shorten it a bit,

I went ahead and tillered it out to 75# at 26", handle looks to have just a tad of flex, not having a very strong day today so not able to draw it past ablot 24", Took about 1' of set.  Think I will go ahead and tiller it out to 65 at 26 and then see if it wil survive a 30" draw, not much speed at 24" and some handshock but last 14" of limbs havent been worked yet much. Steve

duffontap

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Re: Mary Rose Replica Bow Build-Along--An Entrance into the World of War Bows
« Reply #24 on: November 02, 2006, 05:48:40 pm »
Thanks for the pics Matti!

Hey Badger, do you have a photo of your ERC bow on the tillering tree?  I'll love to see where it's at. 

michigan bowguy

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Re: Mary Rose Replica Bow Build-Along--An Entrance into the World of War Bows
« Reply #25 on: November 02, 2006, 06:37:30 pm »
great thread! 8)

Offline Badger

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Re: Mary Rose Replica Bow Build-Along--An Entrance into the World of War Bows
« Reply #26 on: November 03, 2006, 03:26:07 am »
JD, If I will narow the outside limbs a bit in the morning and get the outer limbs working a bit more then photo it. Try to post it tomorrow, Steve

Jaro

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Re: Mary Rose Replica Bow Build-Along--An Entrance into the World of War Bows
« Reply #27 on: November 03, 2006, 04:52:24 pm »
Ask Steve Stratton if he done any of the "experiments", Pip claims he made with him on the face of the very book.


Anyway Steve Stratton, who is pretty knowledgeable to the subject is now selling italian high altitude yew bows made to profile and dimensions of MR bows. They mostly come out over 100# and these are also mostly 4´´ longer than originalls (presumably safety). Now I have seen these in person, width and profile of one of smallest MR Bows 80´´ long, drawing 96#, except that originall was only 74´´ long!!! Take a guess how much weight it would have picked when piked down 6´´, but my guess is 4#per inch. This is a bow which is only 30 mm wide!
(BTW - if you have $ - buy Steve´s bows, they are excellent and nobody knows when the stock dryes out. They are made in Italy, he imports and sells them)

Jaro









« Last Edit: November 03, 2006, 05:31:54 pm by Jaro »

Jaro

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Re: Mary Rose Replica Bow Build-Along--An Entrance into the World of War Bows
« Reply #28 on: November 03, 2006, 04:59:05 pm »
J.D. The laminated stave is option if you have not yew stave, but its not the right thing....

http://www.sweb.cz/hawkwind/trosky/braced.jpg
http://www.sweb.cz/hawkwind/tiler1.jpg

Jaro

Offline Badger

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Re: Mary Rose Replica Bow Build-Along--An Entrance into the World of War Bows
« Reply #29 on: November 03, 2006, 05:12:21 pm »
Beautiful tiller on that bow jaro, I am going to try and get some yew this year, last year I wasnt too happy with the one stav I did buy, it seperated inbetween the lams first time bow was flexed. Steve