Author Topic: Mary Rose Replica Bow Build-Along--An Entrance into the World of War Bows  (Read 227124 times)

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duffontap

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Re: Mary Rose Replica Bow Build-Along--An Entrance into the World of War Bows
« Reply #105 on: November 17, 2006, 05:37:01 pm »
Step 7.2:  ?Replica? Horn Nocks

One of the problems we run into with building a replica of a Medieval bow is how to fill the gaps in our understanding of how the equipment was used.  A great example of this is the horn nocks on the Mary Rose bows.  Every intact bow tip shows clearly that it had, at one time, a horn nock fitted onto it similarly to how we do it today.  Similar--but not the same.  Limb tips were tapered to a point and the horn was glued on (probably with hide glue) and a single side nock was cut through the horn into the bow tip.  The obvious questions that this raises are, ?why horn nocks? and ?why a single side nock?? 

The Mary Rose bows were not intended to be ornate.  The horn tips were not decorative, but were functional parts of military weaponry.  Those who have worked with Yew may have already guessed that Yew in very high draw weights will not survive very long without horn tips or their equivalent.  While tillering my own replica, I filed a set of temporary nocks into the wood, and it wasn?t a few minutes before the string deeply gouged into the sapwood on the back.  OK, so the ?why horn nocks? question is answered easy enough.

But how does a single side nock work?  Many believe that the bowstrings that were used in Medieval times had no loops and were tied to both ends of the bow with two timber hitches.  Living in this day, where we primarily use strings with two plaited loops, the single side-nock begins to be less practical.  Here?s the conflict:  closer replication, or more practical function? 

My original plan was to use the single side-nock that was present on the original bows, but once again, not knowing exactly how these worked, it is difficult matching the originals.  I want my replica bow to be a functional, regular shooter.  After consulting Pip, and a few others in the mother country, I have decided to use more modern grooves in my horn nocks.  I have also resisted the urge to make them fancy.  I chose to match the horn nock replica on the Mary Rose web page (pictured below) as it seemed  the only slightly-better-than-completely-arbitrary style of horn nock to copy.  It struck me as being a good example of rugged, practical, military functionality.  I forced myself to comply to this simple standard.

Another note:  many of the notches in the bow tips revealed that the horn nocks had two grooves on the same side.  This could have meant that they were made to be used with a bow stringer, or as an easy adjustment for brace height.  I chose to include this double-groove in my nocks to facilitate the use of a stringer.  I can string a bow that draws 100# at 30? but not one that?s 80? long.

The first image below shows a Mary Rose bow tip without the nock, the only horn nock to be found on the Mary Rose, and a replica that I kinda modeled my horn tips on. 

The second image is of me working down my own double-groove horn nock.

Questions welcomed.

               J. D. Duff


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Offline D. Tiller

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Re: Mary Rose Replica Bow Build-Along--An Entrance into the World of War Bows
« Reply #106 on: November 17, 2006, 07:20:05 pm »
JD are you going to shine up the horn on the bow? I really like what your doing with the project. Thats turning into a bow to be really proud of. Looking at the horn nock on the Mary Rose bow and the replica it looks like the one found on the Rose was really rustic compared to the one shown in the replica. Was the replica an actual repro of the Mary Rose or a more fanciful version?

I like what your doing with those knocks!

D. Tiller
“People are less likely to shoot at you if you smile at them” - Mad Jack Churchill

duffontap

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Re: Mary Rose Replica Bow Build-Along--An Entrance into the World of War Bows
« Reply #107 on: November 17, 2006, 07:36:49 pm »
DT,

Yes, I'll shine them up and coat them with tru-oil for protection.  The replica on the Mary Rose webpage is not exact by any means.  It's just a good example of simple functionality.  I could get really fancy with a horn tip, but that would be a departure from replication. 

Your questions spotlite the inherent problem with any replica project:  replication vs. functional or aesthetic preference.  I'm trying to stick closer to the replication side of the fence, but I need a bow that I can shoot any time without an expert to string it for me--hence the slightly more modern nocks. 

As to whether or not the one surviving original was more rustic:  it most likely was, but I suppose it is at least somewhat deteriorated from all the years under water.  I haven't seen it (other than in the picture) so I don't know if it is very close to being perfectly intact. 

Thanks for the continued interest,

          J. D. Duff

Matti

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Re: Mary Rose Replica Bow Build-Along--An Entrance into the World of War Bows
« Reply #108 on: November 18, 2006, 05:07:16 am »
What kind of cows there were in medieval England? What kind of horns they had? Maybe they were long and narrow?

Some role play:
If I was a horn tip maker (50-100 tips per day)  I'd use the last inch of a horn, the very tip of it and just cut it and drill a cone shaped hole into it. Then some rounding and string grooves. No polishing! Why would I do that, why would I waste time (at least 15 min per tip)  and energy for that? It's for army, they don't care. For bows for private customers and nobles I would polish them well and charge more of course. The rest of the horn pieces I would sell to my neighboring fletcher for arrow inserts.

 ;)

duffontap

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Re: Mary Rose Replica Bow Build-Along--An Entrance into the World of War Bows
« Reply #109 on: November 18, 2006, 12:57:21 pm »
True Matti, although a course, unpolished string groove in horn can saw through a Dacron string in a couple of shots--it could do much worse with a linen string.  There had to be some detail work.  Rugged functionality may mean an absence of decorative touches but does not mean 'quick and easy.'  I would think that Medieval 'cow tippers' would be given adequate time on each bow to insure that it was as good as it could be for the battlefield. 

                   J. D. Duff

Offline Justin Snyder

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Re: Mary Rose Replica Bow Build-Along--An Entrance into the World of War Bows
« Reply #110 on: November 18, 2006, 01:43:47 pm »
I would lots rather spend the time to polish 15 horns than the time to cut, match, glue, then remove the tips just to start over. Without polishing you cannot get a true idea if the horn has cracks or splits. Even a hairline crack could explode under the stress of a 130# draw. If your talking about 15 minutes to polish or an exploded bow the 15 minutes was well spent.  Justin
Everything happens for a reason, sometimes the reason is you made a bad decision.


SW Utah

duffontap

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Re: Mary Rose Replica Bow Build-Along--An Entrance into the World of War Bows
« Reply #111 on: November 18, 2006, 02:00:55 pm »
I hadn't really thought of that.  Good point.

Hey Justin,

I have 320 posts and you only have 313.  Slacker. ;D

           J. D. Duff

Offline Justin Snyder

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Re: Mary Rose Replica Bow Build-Along--An Entrance into the World of War Bows
« Reply #112 on: November 18, 2006, 03:31:29 pm »
You have more usefull information.  ;D  We need to go back and count from the old board I think. ;)   BTW that is 314 I'm catching up. Justin
Everything happens for a reason, sometimes the reason is you made a bad decision.


SW Utah

Offline Dane

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Re: Mary Rose Replica Bow Build-Along--An Entrance into the World of War Bows
« Reply #113 on: November 18, 2006, 08:22:28 pm »
Wow Steve, thanks. 

Oh, Dane--I'll take a wollen horse if your offering.  I had some glue-stick ponies when I was young that would have been pretty useful for arrow penetration tests, but not much else.  I totally blew that opportunity! ;D

       J. D. Duff

Step 7 in five....

JD, maybe I made a typo? Wollen hose, as in the stuff you protect your legs with.
Greenfield, Western Massachusetts

duffontap

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Re: Mary Rose Replica Bow Build-Along--An Entrance into the World of War Bows
« Reply #114 on: November 19, 2006, 12:57:52 am »
No typo--that was totally a brain failure on my part.  I was wondering what you were talking about.  There's nothing like when someone misreads what you say and then thinks you're crazy! ;D

As far as protection, I think I'll just surround myself with sharpened stakes. 

                J. D. Duff

Offline backwoods preacher

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Re: Mary Rose Replica Bow Build-Along--An Entrance into the World of War Bows
« Reply #115 on: November 19, 2006, 01:35:03 am »
Folks,
 A few points,
Both the English Red Devon (sometimes called the milking Devon) and the Irish Dexter cattle have fairly narrow well shaped pointed horns easy to work.  Having raised the Dexters for 10 + years, i can testify to this. All cows were horned. the polled one did not come into popularity until we started to mess with the genetics and did a lot of linebreeding.

second, as late as the 1780's there was an occupation (profession? skill?) of hornsmithing, similar to gunsmith, blacksmith, silversmith etc., which worked in and with horn, doing everything with the horn that we do today with plastic.

My point is simply that the equipment and skills were there.
Living History programs and reenactors are a great resourse.
Backwoods Preacher

Offline heavybow

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Re: Mary Rose Replica Bow Build-Along--An Entrance into the World of War Bows
« Reply #116 on: November 19, 2006, 11:14:49 am »
Very nice looking bow josh nice horn tips thats a war bow ;D ;D

duffontap

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Re: Mary Rose Replica Bow Build-Along--An Entrance into the World of War Bows
« Reply #117 on: November 19, 2006, 10:49:54 pm »
Justin,

When did you pull ahead in the race!  This post makes it a tie at 323.

Backwoods preacher,

Thanks for that necessary contribution.  Hornsmith--who'd ever know.

Thanks Marlon,

I shot my finished bow today for the first time.  Thanks to the exercises I'm able to (barely) pull 100# now.  Triple didgets!



Everyone,

I'll be posting a few bow pics tomorrow. 

      J. D. Duff

Rich Saffold

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Re: Mary Rose Replica Bow Build-Along--An Entrance into the World of War Bows
« Reply #118 on: November 20, 2006, 02:22:17 am »
J.D. I finally got caught up on this..I really like the shot of you bent over during initial tillering. :o Having been there myself.. ;)  I'm sure the finished pics. will be worth waiting for..

Rich

duffontap

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Re: Mary Rose Replica Bow Build-Along--An Entrance into the World of War Bows
« Reply #119 on: November 20, 2006, 03:49:59 pm »
Thanks Rich,

I was hoping you'd drop in. 

Finished pics coming up in a few minutes. 

      J. D. Duff