Norse Shooting Technique

[Bueskytter]

Btw "Breton' means a person from Brittany, not Britain.

I know, it says on the tapestry in Norman French that William used Breton archers. So, I can only assume the archers depicted on the Norman side are Bretons.

[JackCrafty]

If it was not painfully obvious than I'm ignorant, Bow-Toxo has put his stamp of approval on the idea. (Thanks)

( Look Mom! I'm a certified dumbass )

(Bueskytter, my apologies for the misunderstanding of "Bretons")


Now let's move on.....

The idea of a "true" longbow is worthless, I agree.  For the sake of clarity, I will be using the term "longbow" in the current politically correct manner.

Are we any closer to answering the question posed by our gracious host?  I think not.  One the one hand we have physical evidence of the Norse using longbows during the Viking era.  We also see a tradition of longbow use and an affection for the weapon in the sagas.  But, on the other hand, we have this document called the Bayeaux Tapestry that seems to contradict the "mainstream" view.  Hence, we have the question: What was the Norse shooting technique?

As I stated earlier, I believe the short bow (smallbow) was an established weapon and used by soldiers of many countries for many centuries prior to the year 1066.  I believe the Norse (Bretons) used this weapon in the battle of Hastings.  But this still does not address the issue of shooting technique.  A smallbow can be shot using the same technique as a longbow, provided the smallbow can withstand the strain of a long draw....which leads into the next question:  Why draw to the chest?  It may be as simple as, "The smallbow has a much shorter draw than the longbow...especially if it is NOT a composite type bow".  Even though I would like to imagine that the Vikings used Asiatic style composite bows, it is very likely they did not.

Then there is the issue of the power needed to be an effective weapon against armored opponents.  I think we can all agree that 80-90lb is sufficient strength to pierce mail at combat ranges and that 80-90lb is within the design capabilities of both longbows and smallbows made from saplings of yew, ash, or elm.

So, in conclusion, I think the shooting technique was dictated by the bow itself and that various self bows were used by the Norse.


PS...Bow-Toxo, you don't have time to teach me the basics?  (chuckle)  I know this: basically, you need to get over yourself.

[JackCrafty]

How would you characterise the shooting techniques in these pictures?  Please explain the differences.  Perhaps one technique is more "Norse" than the other?

(Pictures taken from article in PA, by Pip Bickerstaffe)



[attachment deleted by admin]

[Kviljo]

There have been found a few viking arrows in the Oppdal mouintains, complete with shaft, point and birch bark for the lashing of the point. One is 27" long. No eardraw there, but those were for hunting. Hunting equipment could be quite different to warbows, as they were in the medieval period (Malde 2008 (me )).

[nick1346]

How would you characterise the shooting techniques in these pictures?  Please explain the differences.  Perhaps one technique is more "Norse" than the other?

(Pictures taken from article in PA, by Pip Bickerstaffe)

I'd be carefull there. They are very old pictures of Mark shooting and his style has changed markedly since then. The pictures here represent someone in the process of rediscovering a technique and are not an absolute technique in itself. If you look at the bottom picture in particular you'll notice its a short arrow. To say Mark is shooting a 'Norse' technique would be seriously in error and I wouldn't make any claims as to either of them being a norse technique because that is not what he was developing.

I know you've got an interesting debate going on here but these photo's do not represent the argument at hand

[JackCrafty]

Nick1346, thanks for the reply...for a while there I thought this thread had run its course.

It's been probably seven years since I fired a longbow...and it's been longer than that since I researched anything on the subject at hand.  Could you direct me to the proper forums, videos, (or whatever) so I can get up to speed?  I really don't know what the heck you guys are talking about concerning the "eardraw" thing.  I've heard of it, of course, but I thought the technique was not in widespread use until much later than 1066.

[bow-toxo]

We haven't found a Norse bow and arrow together. In Hedeby enough remained of a quiver to show it was two feet long.  Projecting shaftments would add at least another six inches, but we don't know what length of arrowheads would have been in it. Nydam longbows and arrows fit a draw to the ear, which was common throughout the Middle Ages and until the middle of the nineteenth century when changes in shooting practices led to development of the famous corner of the mouth draw that many of today's archers can't bring themselves to give up. For Norse technique we can look to the closest cultures we know about. That would be:- Draw to the chest [ especially with smallbows' shorter arrows] or draw to the ear. Instinctive aiming. Some good tips for that on the English longbow forum, or google " instinctive."

[Kviljo]

Bow-toxo, from where do you have the term "shortbow"? I haven't come across any references to such bows, either in text or in archaeological remains. From 1100 in Norway and Sweden we can talk about short bows (two-wood bows), but not for the vikings. If you are refering to hornbows, I would not regard it as a reliable analogy for longbow-shooting cultures.

[bow-toxo]

Bow-toxo, from where do you have the term "shortbow"? I haven't come across any references to such bows, either in text or in archaeological remains. From 1100 in Norway and Sweden we can talk about short bows (two-wood bows), but not for the vikings. If you are refering to hornbows, I would not regard it as a reliable analogy for longbow-shooting cultures.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I used the term "smallbow" not "shortbow" The recipe for the length is in Le Livre de Chasse, a mediaeval French book on hunting.The term small bow was written in the time of Richard II, and in another Hundred Years War reference concerning the Earl of Desmond. I know of no remaining smallbows, so we have to go by the many manuscript illustrations, some from Norway, that show them.The illumination of the Viking execution of Saint Edmund shows boww with the bent back tips that may represent smallbows which were used mainly in hunting, sometimes in war. The two-wood bows I am familiar with are not short, but about the height of a man. Anyway they are of Lapp [sorry] or"Finn" manufacture although Vikings named ''Finnbogi" may have used them. They are much like bows of northern Russian Asiatic tribes such as the Ostjak.

[Kviljo]

Interesting stuff. If they are mentioned in Richard II's time (1367-1400), it might be the short type B two-wood bow. The Maciejowski Bible has a few illustrations that may well be such bows. The medieval type Bs were probably between 140 and 160 cm long, much shorter than the 2m+ type A. But then again, the most southern find of these two-wood bows are from Oslo (or perhaps Novgorod is further south?).

Cut from my masters thesis:
The type B to the right, type A in the middle, and a longbow to the left for comparison.





Smallbow may perhaps even be a description for a small crossbow, after all, if the term comes from a book from the fourtheenth century it is regarding the higher classes from the later part of the medieval period, and even from France*. I doubt that those guys would degrade themselves by shooting a cheap handbow

[bow-toxo]

Apart from northern Scandinavia we have no evidence for two-wood bows in Europe before the backed bows of post-Tudor times. The Maciejowski Bible bowws are however strikingly similar to Asian composites and two-wood bows. I think the jury is still out on those. I have made up bows and arrows from the clearly described Le Livre de Chasse recipe and they match the original  illustrations from the first printing. Why would you bring up two-wood bows, a northern Asian idea in an area known for self bows ? Your "type b" is certainly the Finn bow type. What is the one in the middle ?
It is apparently a flatbow. What is its origin ?

[Kviljo]

I see, so they are clearly not crossbows then? What's the general description of the bow? I'll have to get myself a copy of that document!

I wouldn't call the two-wood bows asian. They might have their origin there, but the technology was adapted and developed into the type A which has only been found in Norway. There are 57 fragments in total, mainly from Bergen, Oslo and Trondheim, which have been dated to between 1100 and 1500. It's a longbow made with two-wood technology, birch and compression pine. I wrote about them and made some reconstructions in connection with my masters thesis that I finished this spring. They haven't been studied fully before, so I'm hoping to publish at least some english articles concerning them, if not the complete thesis. I'll just have to translate it first, hehe...

http://kviljo.no/bue/nydam2/1.jpg

http://kviljo.no/bue/nydam2/7.jpg

[bow-toxo]

Le Livre de Chasse specifies an arrow of 8 'poignees' [fists] from nock to barbs of a broadhead 4 fingers eide by 5 fingers long. The bow is to be 20 'poulcees' [ thumbs, tip to second joint] between nocks, and to be braced at a palm's width of height. I think you can find the contemporary illustrations on the web.

 I am very interested in your Norse two-wood bows, which I have not previously known about. I assume this is a new discovery. I have a Norwegian book on ancient archery that does not mention it. How can I get information?

[Kviljo]

Ahh, way cool!   Is it these illustrations you were thinking of?

http://classes.bnf.fr/phebus/images/3/c80_616.jpg

http://classes.bnf.fr/phebus/images/3/c76_616.jpg

http://classes.bnf.fr/phebus/images/3/c73_616.jpg

http://classes.bnf.fr/phebus/images/3/c71_616.jpg


The type A two-wood bow has been known since 1972 in Oddmunn Farbregds "Pilefunn fra Oppdalsfjella", but they haven't been studied closely until now. So I guess you'll have to wait till I get the time to print my masters thesis. I can resereve a copy for you if you want, but it is written in Norwegian.   Hoping to write some smaller english articles on them though.

[bow-toxo]

Ahh, way cool!   Is it these illustrations you were thinking of?

The type A two-wood bow has been known since 1972 in Oddmunn Farbregds "Pilefunn fra Oppdalsfjella", but they haven't been studied closely until now. So I guess you'll have to wait till I get the time to print my masters thesis. I can resereve a copy for you if you want, but it is written in Norwegian.   Hoping to write some smaller english articles on them though.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes, those are the ones, especially the last one. Please reserve me a copy, I worked in Norway and Sweden for over a year and could once read a book in Norsk. Maybe I still can.