Author Topic: Ipe and Bamboo  (Read 22091 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline backgardenbowyer

  • Member
  • Posts: 130
Ipe and Bamboo
« on: May 23, 2008, 11:13:18 am »
Hi,

I've got hold of a really nice piece of ipe decking from my local wood yard - the grain is straight along the length and flat ringed with no swirls or pins.  I'm going to couple this with a backing strip cut from a reasonable piece of bamboo found at a garden centre.

My question is this - unfortunately my metric dimension Ipe blank is a miserly 19mm (0.75") thick and the boo backing is a fraction under 0.25" at the centre (why isn't anything 1" thick any more!). I've cut rough tapers on the ipe but left it 1.25" wide at the centre, the boom is flattened ready to glue but varies a lot in thickness. 

Given a bow length of say 71" what kind of weight might I get out of this combination?  I'm not looking for real war bow proportions here as at present I shoot a triple laminate 50#28" which I made for field archery.  My aim is to make a sort of step up bow to shoot initially at about 65#28", but tillered to draw 29" or 30" as I grow into it.  The bow is to be used for clout and roving marks this summer so needs to yield something like 220yds with a light arrow.

Is this over ambitious for the materials?  I don't want to add a core laminate as a) I've enough trouble getting one good glue line without having to do two, and b) trying to keep it as simple and therefore authentic as possible.

The last time I made a bow from this combination it chrysalled in both limbs very quickly despite being only 51#28 with no obvious tillering faults.  This will be my first attempt to make a true war bow tiller coming full compass.

Any comments - I need to get on with the project as it is a Holiday weekend here and in theory I should have the time.  I'll try to post pics as the project proceeds.

Stan  UK

Offline Justin Snyder

  • Administrator
  • Member
  • Posts: 13,794
Re: Ipe and Bamboo
« Reply #1 on: May 23, 2008, 01:24:07 pm »
If your Ipe is good you have plenty of wood and boo there.  I made a Ipe selfbow that was 69" NTN 3/4" wide and 5/8" deep at the handle and 3/8" side at the tips.  It wound up 65#. If you back yours with boo, at 1 1/4" wide you could easily get over 100#. Justin
Everything happens for a reason, sometimes the reason is you made a bad decision.


SW Utah

grantmac

  • Guest
Re: Ipe and Bamboo
« Reply #2 on: May 23, 2008, 01:42:32 pm »
With similar Ipe sizing to you I hit somewhere in the 110-130 range with only 1.5" of follow and the bow was 75" NTN. I think you are going to have lots of wood to remove.
    Cheers,
           Grant

Rich Saffold

  • Guest
Re: Ipe and Bamboo
« Reply #3 on: May 23, 2008, 03:59:11 pm »
Stan,

If you want a 71" bow I'd lay it out so you get 1 1/8th+ through the middle after cutting. This isn't for poundage, but to keep the bow laterally stable. You will probably end up around an inch wide and hopefully won't have to shorten it unless you want to. Remember to keep the limb thickness well under the depth.

I'd also floor tiller the belly to where it feels like a 40# bow, or less since often these bows double in poundage with the bamboo glued on. For this one I wouldn't glue it up with more than an inch of reflex..

Keep the boo on the thin side as well, and make sure its even thickness on both sides with the crown going down the middle of the limbs...

When using Ipe, make sure when dry it sinks like a rock in water. Many lesser woods look like Ipe, and get sold as such...To Chrysall good Ipe takes some serious overpowering..

Rich



Offline backgardenbowyer

  • Member
  • Posts: 130
Re: Ipe and Bamboo
« Reply #4 on: May 23, 2008, 07:56:13 pm »
Thanks for all you help guys.  There's a whole lot of experience on this site :)

I decided to glue the bow up this evening. It's still about 1.25" wide at the handle but I'll take a bit off with the planer before I start to tiller.  It's in a jig with about 2" reflex, so probably not more than 1" when I release the presure.  Left it about 74" long for now as it always makes sense to start long and then pike it a bit.   I've never been any good at getting boo backings even and am happy if I can just get them flat enough for a good glue line.

I haven't tested this wood in water, but it is hard, dark and dense, the hand plane just bounces off it - looks better than previous pieces I've had.  I suspect "ipe" gets used as a generic trade name for wood of this type rather than for one species.

Here's a thought about bamboo backings - as light tips are an advantage and bamboo much lighter than Ipe woudn't it be a good idea if the backing was kept farily thick at the tips rather than thinner (which is the usual practice).  I've seen a few yew bows where the sap wood just happened to be thicker at the tips and they shot fine.  Any thoughts?

Stan

Rich Saffold

  • Guest
Re: Ipe and Bamboo
« Reply #5 on: May 23, 2008, 08:08:27 pm »
Stan,
My fastest backed ipe bows have rather thick bamboo all the way to the overlays, and perhaps it helps at the tips as well, but they can be made so small with ipe and still be strong that I've always felt either way it's going to be light out there ..

I can see it working more like you mentioned on the yew selfbows, and similar woods..I too have fairly thick sapwood at the tips of my yew bow..

Tabebuia Ipe covers over 100 subspecies and I have seen Ipe which is almost blonde in color, and I have a couple  Ipe bows which are mostly black..Todays Ipe bow has red limbs, and its performing quite well.. Density above color, but usually the darker woods seem to be heavier by a bit.

Rich

Offline backgardenbowyer

  • Member
  • Posts: 130
Re: Ipe and Bamboo
« Reply #6 on: May 23, 2008, 08:12:40 pm »
Here's the stave clamped to my son's bunk bed (don't worry he's away for the summer!)  it makes an excellent jig.

Rich - I've just tested an offcut from my Ipe - it sinks without hesitation, compared this with a piece left over from the last batch which just floats.  So I'm now pretty confident in my materials - shame really: leaves me without excuses!

Stan

[attachment deleted by admin]
« Last Edit: May 23, 2008, 08:24:14 pm by backgardenbowyer »

Rich Saffold

  • Guest
Re: Ipe and Bamboo
« Reply #7 on: May 23, 2008, 09:01:03 pm »
Very creative Jig Stan, and it certainly looks stout enough..Lots of folks over the past decade have bought wood they thought was Ipe, and told me their bow blew, or was useless.

Well a little education, and many good bowyers have backed up what the Amazon natives knew for a long time, and like you just found out..When you get a good piece of ipe, the other woods feel much lighter...

On bows like these, its all about density, and straight grain helps as well..

Rich

Offline Marc St Louis

  • Administrator
  • Member
  • Posts: 7,869
  • Keep it flexible
    • Marc's Bows and Arrows
Re: Ipe and Bamboo
« Reply #8 on: May 23, 2008, 11:29:09 pm »
I made an ELB with very much those same dimensions a couple years ago, more like a warbow actually.  It came out to about 130# @ 30"
Home of heat-treating, Corbeil, On.  Canada

Marc@Ironwoodbowyer.com

Offline backgardenbowyer

  • Member
  • Posts: 130
Re: Ipe and Bamboo
« Reply #9 on: May 24, 2008, 01:29:20 pm »
Well, this ipe passed the sinking test, and the glue up has been successful - just about my best glue line with boo to date.  The backing is a bit thick - a full 1/4" at the tips, but I've reduced the stave to just a fraction over 1 1/8" wide at the centre, where it is a hair's breadth under 1" thick.  This is obviously more than enough.  Here it is off the jig cleaned up and with the belly beginning to be rounded.  Less than 1" reflex. I'll leave it till tomorrow or Monday (weather permitting) to floor tiller just so the glue (extraphen - resorcinol) has a little more time to cure.

I'll keep the pics coming if you guys keep up the welcome and necessary advice!

Stan


[attachment deleted by admin]

Rich Saffold

  • Guest
Re: Ipe and Bamboo
« Reply #10 on: May 24, 2008, 11:33:31 pm »
Looks like yer good for around 100#'s, Ideally these bows will gain a touch of reflex when removing belly wood, which means your net loss after shooting in remains at zero so it will go back to reflex when unstrung..Humidity permitting..Thick bamboo can suck up more moisture than thin bamboo..trade-offs..

Keep the pics coming..

Rich

Offline markinengland

  • Member
  • Posts: 698
Re: Ipe and Bamboo
« Reply #11 on: May 25, 2008, 07:50:51 pm »
Looks like there is a good if big bow in there.
If it was me this is what I would do (others may do different).
Shape is on the back and belly using good sharp rasps ands files so it looks like a bow, giving it whatever profile you like. Make sure the tapers are good and even. Give it a fine finish with fine sanp paper or a very fine file.
Put temporary nocks on.
Use a long tiller string, accurate scales and pulley to pull no more than brace height and no more than final desired draw weight. Adjust as necessary to get a good even bend with somewhat stiff tips. I like to use a bowyers edge for this. A simple scraper is also good, used with the fine file. After each wood removal pull at least 20 times to exercise the bow and see what effect the wood removal has had. Keep a very close eye out for hinges and very stiff sections. At this stage don't worry about the draw weight, just go for good braced shape.
The bow will probably be way over the weight you want and trying to floor tillering it will feel like leaning against a tree, hence use of a long tillering string.
As soon as you feel the basic shape is about right put on a good thick and non-stretch tillering string. Non-stretch is very important as it is quite painfull when your monster bow and stretchy string traps your hand.
Pull the bow on the tiller a few inches 20 times or so and check the draw weight. This may be quite high. I once had an Ipe/Hickory bow pulling 120lbs at 3 inches (a little too much reflex!).
You now have two choices.
Finish the monster bow to the draw weight it wants to be.
Do a fairly large amount of wood removal, a lot of pulling until the bow pulls what you want at your draw length.
I have found that an Ipe bow like this can increase in reflex as you remove wood from the belly and the weight will stay high with a tendancy to develop hinges as parts of the bow do come to weight. Small amounts of wood removal can make a big difference so you may find yourself chasing hinges after hinges until eventually they even out, hopefully somewhere near your desired draw weight with a good shape, but maybe at 15 inches!
Now I like to go carefull, trying for an even amount of removal or each limb, and even off each side, exercising a lot each inch of increased draw, never pulling over the final draw weight. This is the stage at which you can bring the string over a little to the side you will shoot from. If the bow is made symetrically you can decide which way is up at the end and pretend the string lays off a little on purpose. I would be using the finse files and scraper, keeping the bow looking almost polished and ready to use as this help me go careful. Some may say this is too careful but I like to pull 50 times per inch. For me at least, it takes this kind of repetition for me to be able to see the effect of the wood removal. Sometimes it will take a fair amount of this to get the weight you want and the shape you want at the draw length you have got to. The frustrating thing is that you then need to pull it a little more, have to take off some more wood, pull it lots more times to get it to once again pull the final weight you want with the tiller shape you want but an inch further towards the draw length you want.
Now is the time you could get fed up and rush things and suddenly find you have a hinged underweight bow, or a broken bow.
From bitter experience I go slow and eventually find I have a bow that is about what I was after.
One big lesson I have learnt with Ipe is that a little wood makes a lot of bow, so very little less wood can make a much weaker bow. Changes can be sudden and unexpected to keep checking the variables.
Have fun making this one. Hope it works out good,
Mark in England



Offline backgardenbowyer

  • Member
  • Posts: 130
Re: Ipe and Bamboo
« Reply #12 on: May 25, 2008, 08:23:46 pm »
Hi Mark - I think we met at SPTA St. George's Day shoot.

I'm not going for real war bow weight as I only shoot about 50lbs at present so this is a "step up" to give about 65-70lbs, to learn how to tiller a compass bow and give me something with which I can shoot roving marks.  Started tillering today and I'm finding that the somewhat variable thickness of the the boo backing between different nodes makes it quite tricky.  I think there may be a slight hinge developing on the right hand limb (nominally the bottom one but still time to change that) which you can see more easily in the pic of the bow at low brace height - so I won't draw it any further till I'm sure that is evened out.  On the other hand it is definitely bending through the handle which is good as I'm aiming for that. Brace height is about 4" and the bow is drawn to a nominal 16", but when set at normal brace height at which the string is shorter I think it represents only a real draw of about 14".  I'm finding it difficult to check the weight using this set up as I need both hands to pull the bow back on the tiller which is tricky using one of those bow scales designed to be used in a normal draw position. It's probably around 50-55lbs at this draw length.  The tillering nocks are about 73" apart and though I intend the finished bow to be about 71" which should be plenty at the target weight.

If the weather holds off tomorrow I'll do some more.  I've always found if you can get the tiller just right at normal brace height the rest is just patience and elbow grease.

Comments and advice very welcome.

[attachment deleted by admin]
« Last Edit: May 25, 2008, 08:27:42 pm by backgardenbowyer »

Offline markinengland

  • Member
  • Posts: 698
Re: Ipe and Bamboo
« Reply #13 on: May 26, 2008, 07:19:33 am »
BGB,
Yes we did meet at the SPTA shoot.
Bow looks good.
One method I use for looking for hinges is a walky-talky stick. Have you tried this?
I made mine from an off cut or Ipe, about six inches long and an inch wide. I drilled a hole through the centre and screw in a bolt. I can run this along the belly of the braced bow and look at the arc of air between the bow and walky-talky stick. Where the bow is bending less the arc is less, where it is bending more or hinged the gap is greater. By screwing the bolt out slightly you cans get it to just touch the bow at the point of greatest bend (hinge). As you run the WTS along the bow it will rock on the bolt where the bend is less. This can be quite usefull for getting an even bend. Yours looks about spot on from what I can see. It is hard to see the shape against the background.
A pulley set up will be much easier to tiller with if you have somewhere to fit it. I have mine attached to the wall of my garden too shed, made with bits from B&Q. A bit of timber and ply, pulleys, ropes, a few carabiner type clips are easy and cheap to get hold of. The scales may take a bit more looking for. I started off with some simple cheap spring scales but these weren't accurate. I then got some heavy fishing scales with a clock type face from Ebay which were cheap, easier to read but not really accurate and broke. I  and finally invested in a set of accurate commercial scales again off ebay. These are good and I know they are accurate up to 100kgs or 220lbs which should be enough!
Shame about the weather today. Home and can't do any bow making!
Have you heard of the ETAS Batsford shoot put on by Steve Stratton . Just got back from it. Weather was pants but great to see so many bow makers, warbows, primitive bows, people from as far away as Iceland and Sweden.
Mark in England

Offline backgardenbowyer

  • Member
  • Posts: 130
Re: Ipe and Bamboo
« Reply #14 on: May 26, 2008, 08:28:39 am »
Mark

I picked up something about a shot a Batford on this site - is there is talk of a war bow society as BLBS are changing their rules?

The weather is depressing. I shall have to stay indoors and make a string for the bow (15 strands of dacron B50 3x5 plies sound OK for up to 70lbs, or should it be 16 2x8?).  I can usually get away with working on horn nocks in the kitchen if I keep the door open and extractor fan on.  Strings and nocks are my least favourite part of bow making.  I've been thinking abour fitting a bracket and pulley on the wall, but we don't own the house so it may not be a welcome addition.  No part of our fence or the crumbling lawn mower shed are strong enough to cope.

My bow scale goes up to 90lbs which is fine for now, but its one of those you hook two fingers round and draw the bow, curiously I find I can pull less like this with the bow on the till than I can when holding the bow normally.  As tillering progresses I also use the reflection in the French windows so I can feel how the bow draws as well as see it - but this is much less accurate measure.

Let me know if anyone posts pics of the Batsford event.

Stan