knot going through side of bow limb??? advice please

[rcoen2]

Hey, so I'm trying to help a friend make his first bow. We're still in the roughing out phase.  Got a ring chased and the bow profiled out but not yet to floor tiller. 

On one of the limbs there appears to be a knot going through the side of the limb, appearing as a dark spot. 
Does this compromise the limb?  How is it best to work with a situation like this?  Unfortunately I think we would lose too much of the limb if we were to try and reduce the limb thickness to remove it. 

Advice on how to proceed?  The bow is Oregon ash and based off of comstock's wide limbed design for whitewoods.
66" long, 1 3/4" most of limb.  We're shooting for 45#ish.

IMG_0598 by Ryder Coen, on Flickr

thanks,
Ryder

[Hamish]

If you are on a clean growth ring on the back you will be OK.

You do need to leave a swelling at that spot for the depth of the limb, as you floor tiller, all the way through tillering.

As you remove wood through the process, you can tell how much leave, to compensate for the knot. Any amount of knot is treated like it was a hole in the wood, with zero strength.

[rcoen2]

when you say a swelling do you mean a bulging on the side of the limb?  Like an increase in the limb width around where the knot is?

[superdav95]

Ryder.   I don’t want to speak for h Hamish but I think he might mean thickness at the knot through the tillering process as the knot can be weaker.  If it were me I would also go a little wider at this spot as well to give it some protection around the sides of the knot.  It will add a nice character to the bow and shouldn’t effect performance.  I’ve had some bows that were fine with filing down the knot and finishing at the same level as the wood around it depending on how solid the knot looks.  Other times I’ve e had failures at knots that looked fine and later had issues.  Like what has been said I would leave some extra thickness or swelling and leave some meat around it also.  Best of luck with the bow. 

Cheers.

[rcoen2]

Okay, thanks.  So what I am hearing/understanding is that essentially a knot going through the side of a limb isn't much different from a knot going through the belly.  I was concerned that having it go through the side considerably weakens the limb more than a knot just going through the belly...

[Hamish]

Correct superdav, I was referring to the thickness of the limb. Also if the stave is 2" wide and you want to 1 &3/4" limbs leave it the full 2" width at the point of the knot as well, for the moment.

A knot that runs across/through the limb side to side is tricky and potentially much more dangerous than one that runs back to belly. (Usually only get them using a quarter sawn board, not when using the growth ring on the back.

I don't know if your knot is just the stub of a small branch that got covered up(most likely), or does it come out somewhere on the belly?

If its just a stub you can start carefully drilling/digging it out with the point of a sturdy knife, see how far it goes in.

Post some more photo's as you go, if you're still having trouble on what to do.

[bownarra]

I wouldn't trust it. A knot on the limb edge is different to one running through from back to belly. you say you have already roughed the width out and don't have any extra? That is the problem.

[rcoen2]

Yeah, that's what I'm concerned about.  Currently the limbs are roughed out to 1 3/4" from fade to past mid limb.  We could go thinner on the limbs but leave that area wider, but I'm not sure if that would even be helpful. 
______

It's confusing to me exactly what's going on.  There is a grouping of small knots on the back of the bow right in that area, and there is a knot seen going through the belly of the bow.  So either the small grouping of knots on the back are leading to what I'm seeing on the belly, or else what I'm seeing on the side is what's cutting diagonally through the limb and belly.

Or else perhaps it is a branch stub that got grown over, though I've never actually heard that before...

What I'm seeing on the belly looks like it may be bigger than what I would imagine the small knots on the back creating on there own, leading me to think perhaps it is in fact coming from what I'm seeing on the side but I can't tell for sure. 

I guess I'll plan on cleaning it up and investigating more

[scp]

Better get your friend a clean board for the first bow. I would not bother with it after 50 bows. But it might a good exercise and learning opportunity for experts. Good luck.

[Del the cat]

Being on the side it shouldn't be too much of a problem as long as any softy manky material is removed and it is filled with wood dust/epoxy mix or plugged with wood.
Here's two posts showing an extreme one that slowly became exposed as I worked down a 90# Yew warbow.
https://bowyersdiary.blogspot.com/2012/01/mystery-knot.html
https://bowyersdiary.blogspot.com/2012/01/filled-knot.html
Del

[scp]

Del, with Yew, epoxy, length and your experience, those are extremely rare and far from "primitive" exceptions. Not even imaginable for the first bow.

[George Tsoukalas]

Looks like a tough stave. If you continue be sure to tiller the knotted area slightly stiffer than the rest of the limb.  Jawge

[Jim Davis]

I'm going to be sarcastic but useful:

Hurry up and break that stave so you will learn to reject bad wood and not waste your time on it.

Most who have made a lot of bows would only tackle a stave like that if they were bored with success and wanted a challenge. Beginners try anything because they don't have something better.

[Del the cat]

I'm going to be sarcastic but useful:

Hurry up and break that stave so you will learn to reject bad wood and not waste your time on it.

Most who have made a lot of bows would only tackle a stave like that if they were bored with success and wanted a challenge. Beginners try anything because they don't have something better.

True, but it's also how we learn...
Del

[BetterTrees]

I think it was somewhere is the first TBB that someone said "don't waste time and wood"
I am with Jim.

That's a stave for masters or masochists.