Mind numbing!!!

[Allyn T]

So are you saying you don't measure the string distance at all? If you draw the bow on the tree, replicating where you will hold and draw, and the draw is straight down (following a straight line and not pulling to one side or the other) that makes a perfect tiller?

Do you worry about distance the limbs draw? In other words do you want the tips to wind up in the same horizontal line  (which could not happen unless the limbs were the exact same length) or does that not matter either?

This is the problem being new. We try to many different processes mixed together because everyone explains it different and not completely.

Limb tips can be even regardless of even limb length, just as the can be uneven during tillering though they may be equal length

[Don W]

So are you saying you don't measure the string distance at all? If you draw the bow on the tree, replicating where you will hold and draw, and the draw is straight down (following a straight line and not pulling to one side or the other) that makes a perfect tiller?

Do you worry about distance the limbs draw? In other words do you want the tips to wind up in the same horizontal line  (which could not happen unless the limbs were the exact same length) or does that not matter either?

This is the problem being new. We try to many different processes mixed together because everyone explains it different and not completely.

Limb tips can be even regardless of even limb length, just as the can be uneven during tillering though they may be equal length

I know they can be. The question was what are they supposed to be to be correctly tillered.

[superdav95]

Don.    I’m new here too but based on my experience (such as it is) I’ve done some same length limb bows meaning both exactly the same length and others with positive tiller on the top limb with the top being little longer.  Either way I’ve had some good results.  I’ll Taylor how much positive tiller I want and carefully scrape away to achieve the result I want.  Sometimes it works and like predicted and other times the wood throws a curve ball and I have to adjust my outcome I had planned for the bow.  I guess what I’m trying to say is it seems there are so many right answers on this process that one can get lost.  I’m sure others here would perhaps not like the way I tiller my bows and have their own method that works or them.  I’ve been trying to find a way to articulate how I tiller and my set up for this response and even that’s not easy.  My set up is a little different then most here I gather but I guess so long as it works it fine.   As far as what the right answer is it seems to me it’s somewhat subjective and that there are several ways to get to the same place.  My basic understanding on the reasoning for positive tiller is to somewhat account for hand placement being above center.  I don’t do a 1 for 1 measurements on this either. For example…   I’ll do an extra inch in length on my top limb on a longer recurve bow for instance but only aim for a 1/8-1/4” positive till on top limb if that makes any sense. Meaning I’ll measure the distance between the belly of the bow to the braced string on both bottom and top limb and get between 6 1/8”-6 1/4” if my brace is 6” on bottom.   Hopefully I’m explaining this right.  Then I’ll go and shoot it.  If there is unacceptable amount of hand shock or other issues like string alignment or whatever I’ll go back and tweak it some.  It’s time consuming this part and found that I can get handshock issues resolved by playing around with recurves and tweaks to positive tiller.  It’s more then just looks in how well bow shoots too I find.  I’ve had some perfectly looking tiller bows where both limbs look identical to my eye and get more handshock then from a bow with an obvious positive tiller.  So many variables.  I hope this helps in some way.  I’m not the most experienced guy on here for sure and maybe shouldn’t even be giving advice.  I just figured I’d try and answer based on what I’ve done and know works for me.

 Cheers

Dave

[bassman211]

Any gla-- bow I have ever owned came with positive tiller  from 1/8  up to 3/8 ths of an inch, and a few old Bear bows up to 1/2 inch.. If you measure the limb lengths from the arrow shelf for example the top limb will be 29.5 inches long from the shelf  when strung on this particular 62 inch amo bow, and the bottom limb will be 31.5 inches long. You can shoot that bow off the shelf, or with a 1 inch higher stick on rest, adjust the nock point with the right spine  bare shaft arrow, and tune it perfectly shooting either 3 under ,or split finger.

[Don W]

Dave, being internet, I don't think of it so much as advice, but conversation, although virtual, I do think it's important to participate, I'll listen as long as I know who is making the comments, and I can decide from there. I tiller similar to you. I went through a short phase of trying to make the tiller the same, then positive. I found positive seems to work a little better.

Yesterday I did some final tillering with the chronograph. That was interesting

 

[superdav95]

Good stuff don.  Glad to hear I’m not way off base then at least. 

Dave

[Morgan]

Dave, being internet, I don't think of it so much as advice, but conversation, although virtual, I do think it's important to participate, I'll listen as long as I know who is making the comments, and I can decide from there. I tiller similar to you. I went through a short phase of trying to make the tiller the same, then positive. I found positive seems to work a little better.

Yesterday I did some final tillering with the chronograph. That was interesting

You mentioned that you found positive tiller seems to work better. What specifically is it that you have found to work better? Meaning smoother draw, less set in tillering, etc? This is not something that I have strived for but if there is far and away benefits to it I would attempt it on my next stiff handled bow.

[bassman211]

When shooting 3 under with a wooden bow the bottom limb will want to take set first over time, so in that case positive tiller can work to your advantage. Even if it takes no set over time you can shoot it easily with proper string nock adjustment either 3 under, or split finger. If the bow is properly  balanced in you hand at full draw with no hand shock, and tunes a bare shaft arrow you are good to go.

[Don W]

Even if it takes no set over time you can shoot it easily with proper string nock adjustment either 3 under, or split finger.

I shot split, and find this^^

[Tommy D]

Ok.  I’ve seen Clay Hayes say he makes his bows ~1/8 pos tiller because he shoots 3 under…where as someone shooting split would want to have a greater degree of positive tiller…reasoning that as you move your hand up the string, it puts more stress and requires more work of the bottom limb.

I am confused what Clay is wrong about? Isn’t everyone in agreement that three under puts more stress on the bottom/ lower limb all else being equal?

[superdav95]

Tommy.  I’m not sure but I may be confused as well.  In my view doing three under brings the draw closer to center of the bow and thus less strain on the lower limb.  I tested this out with my Ben Pearson bow which has a stick on arrow rest above the shelf.  It shot better with three under.  I didn’t take any measurements but it’s a standard wood glass laminate bow.  When I shoot it split it shoots well still but little more handshock.  This unscientific little test seemed to suggest that when arrow nock is placed above the intended shelf three under may be preferred.  For what it’s worth…

[Don W]

I would think moving closer to center with either would depend where the shelf is. If you move from split finger to 3 under, you move stress down. Wether that's move toward or away from center would depend were center was placed.

I was testing with the Chrono yesterday and noticed I could gain or loose about 3fps moving the arrow up or down shooting off my knuckle.

I also managed to drop the bow draw weight by 11# with no speed loose, but that's for another thread.

[bassman211]

Example... you make a 60 inch bow. Mark it dead center on the riser at 30 inches. Properly tiller the bow with even tiller. (Cut the shelf dead center), but don't do that in the real world) ...and shoot 3 under from the dead center shelf. Your bottom limb will be overly strained. Now measure up 1 and a quarter inches from center, and cut the shelf. Now your bow is balanced, and with string nock adjustment you will be able to shoot the bow 3 under ,or split finger. If the bottom limb  looks to be a little strained  3 under you can shave the top limb for positive tiller, and you can do that up to one quarter of an inch with no negative effects. Gla-- bows have been made this way for decades, and continue to be made this way today. Their are other ways to balance bow limb timing, but I made it simple to understand I hope.

[Don W]

I get that part. I typically try to shot the arrow off 1 1/4"-1/3/4" above center. It's figuring out a process that worked well for me to get an even tiller. Just in this thread we've heard conflicting information. You consistently hear about drawing the vertical line so the sting pulls straight down, or using horizontal lines behind, don't use horizontal lines, just shot, draw a circle.

I tend to use a combination of the above, and am starting to get something that works, I just haven't got it perfected yet.

[superdav95]

Example... you make a 60 inch bow. Mark it dead center on the riser at 30 inches. Properly tiller the bow with even tiller. (Cut the shelf dead center), but don't do that in the real world) ...and shoot 3 under from the dead center shelf. Your bottom limb will be overly strained. Now measure up 1 and a quarter inches from center, and cut the shelf. Now your bow is balanced, and with string nock adjustment you will be able to shoot the bow 3 under ,or split finger. If the bottom limb  looks to be a little strained  3 under you can shave the top limb for positive tiller, and you can do that up to one quarter of an inch with no negative effects. Gla-- bows have been made this way for decades, and continue to be made this way today. Their are other ways to balance bow limb timing, but I made it simple to understand I hope.


Thanks bassman!  I think this makes sense to me.  But let me just be sure.  The 1 1/4” you speak of for arrow shelf.  Is this to account for your hand placement?  Sounds like I mentally had this concept reversed then.  Now that I visualize what your saying it makes sense to me but when I still hear others say moving up the nock point on bow puts more stress on bottom I’m confused.