is holding reflex overrated

[Morgan]

Brad. My apologies for the direction your thread has been taken. You posted a good and relevant question, and it has been taken over. My opinion on held reflex is that it does matter in statistics. Speed, string tension, trajectory etc. I don’t think that those things necessarily translate to longevity and enjoyable shooting, it also doesn’t mean that they don’t have those attributes. I just think a less stressed limb profile leads to a longer life all things being equal, and super high early string tension isn’t as enjoyable for me to shoot for a long period. It takes a toll on my fingers lol.

[bownarra]

I would not try to brace a heated bow for any reason. Sounds like a disaster to me.
 What is the "tepeliks" you are referring to?   

Tepelik is the Turkish word for the curved wooden forms than are used in stringing the Turkish bows, Scythian bowyers used them as well. The bows are gently heated to temporarily reduce their stiffness and then bent on to the tepelik forms (using cordage), then the bow is strung and the tepeliks are removed.

Wrong you do NOT heat a hornbow before bracing......you use techniquue to overcome the reflex. Heating the sal before stringing would simply lead to a semi-permanent set and loss of overall reflex.
If you don't believe me then ask Adam Karpowzi.





See the 9:14 minute mark of this video for an extreme demonstration:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cDLEgELhK6I

[Morgan]

I sincerely hope that someone new to bow building does not come across this nonsense and take it for fact. For the record, do not tiller a bow out of a green stave and expect anything other than a sponge with a string on it.

Wow, here's what we call arrogant ignorance. The bow's power increases as the stave loses moisture content. It doesn't matter if you allow that to happen in log form or bow form, it's always going to dry (albeit faster in the tillered bow).

 You WANT the bow to start off spongey. That's how you avoid set.

Also don’t heat your bow just before bracing it. Same reason. I’m sure horn bows have properties that allows things that cannot be achieved with an all wood or a wood to wood composite. Since this is not a topic in horn bow section, it leaves much room for confusion if one does not know better.

I assure you there's no magic properties in hornbows. Wood bows regain their stiffness once they've returned to normal temperatures. If you knew better you could give reason for your superstitions.  Instead, you're just here to be a contrarian.

Son, I am not arrogant, ignorant, nor a contrarian. I have some actual hands on experience, of which pales in comparison to many others in this board. I’m not sure what your deal is, but it gets old. I have a notion that if we were to have this conversation in person, you would not be so eager to call me arrogant and ignorant. Folks ought to treat people with the same respect as they would looking them in the eye. And yes, I would call the nonsense you were spewing false if you were standing in front of me.

*actual hands-on *BAD* experience.


I honestly laugh at most of the "experienced" people here. Breaking +50 inch bows that don't even pull 27"?  Lifting splinters on staves that weren't even violated? Making bows out of staves that look like an Irish shillelagh? HOw does that even happen? I've never broken a bow in my life and don't even make bows longer than 35 inches anymore. I'll be combing through your post history soon.

Please do comb my posts. You will find examples of mistakes made as well as successes. You will find many questions made by me to the collective knowledge of this forum. And you will see a handful of successful bows and a few failures that I’ve made. When you get done combing, please take that opportunity to post your own work, successes and failures that you have had.
 This group took me from making a poor dog of a self bow to being able to make a pretty decent albeit plain self bow, that I am happy with. 

[HanibalLecter(InnerSmile)]

I would not try to brace a heated bow for any reason. Sounds like a disaster to me.
 What is the "tepeliks" you are referring to?   

Tepelik is the Turkish word for the curved wooden forms than are used in stringing the Turkish bows, Scythian bowyers used them as well. The bows are gently heated to temporarily reduce their stiffness and then bent on to the tepelik forms (using cordage), then the bow is strung and the tepeliks are removed.

Wrong you do NOT heat a hornbow before bracing......you use techniquue to overcome the reflex. Heating the sal before stringing would simply lead to a semi-permanent set and loss of overall reflex.
If you don't believe me then ask Adam Karpowzi.





See the 9:14 minute mark of this video for an extreme demonstration:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cDLEgELhK6I

Er, probably not, since it was Adam Karpowixs who actually told me that.



Now, ladies and gentleman, for the coup de grace of bownarra's reputation:



From Kuk Sool Goong: Korean Martial Art Archery - Page 15 . Barry Harmon)

https://books.google.com/books?id=wQBNDwAAQBAJ&pg=PA15&dq=horn+bow+heated+before+bracing&hl=en&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&source=gb_mobile_search&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjr9JCr9InxAhWSWM0KHcQlC28Q6AEwAHoECAMQAw

The modern composite bows required no special preparation before shooting; all one had to do was to brace it and begin shooting. Where as, the horn bows required being heated up and shaped for a very careful bracing ( stringing) process; it also had to be adjusted and frequently readjusted while shooting.

From With a Bended Bow: Archery in Medieval and Renaissance Europe - pafe 106 (Erik Roth)

https://books.google.com/books?id=sveaDgAAQBAJ&pg=PT106&dq=horn+bow+heated+before+bracing&hl=en&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&source=gb_mobile_search&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjr9JCr9InxAhWSWM0KHcQlC28Q6AEwAXoECAwQAw

A Saracen treatment for composite flight bows involved heating them over a dull charcoal fire for a half hour until they were warm, not hot. They were then cooled for an hour before shooting. Heating would seem ro be a clear benefit both before and after a bow is completed.

From Archery Volume 37 - page 7

https://books.google.com/books?id=WZxYAAAAYAAJ&q=horn+bow+heated+before+bracing&dq=horn+bow+heated+before+bracing&hl=en&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&source=gb_mobile_search&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjr9JCr9InxAhWSWM0KHcQlC28Q6AEwA3oECAcQAw

Before the tournament , hours are spent bracing the bows , heating them on the small charcoal fires

[lonbow]

I´ve found two different answers, if a hornbow is heated while being strung.

Adam Karpowicz writes that the hornbow is not heated when braced with tepeliks. The bow must be unbraced before correcting the allignment with heat in order to not lose reflex in the bending area.

This korean video however shows that the allignment is corrected with heat while the bow is braced at 40:00 minutes. But it seems that the bowyer only heats the comparatively stiff outer parts of the limbs and not the main bending area. In addition to that a leather strap is bound bethween the limb and the string in order not to loose any reflex.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YjZBY1rlxu0



COMING BACK TO THE ORIGINAL QUESTION if holding reflex is overrated on wooden bows, I ask myself how we can distinguish bethween the following two possible reasons for this loss:

1. The heated reflex of the limb is only "pulled out" without damaging the wood on the belly (deformation, but no set?).
2. The reflex is reduced because the wood cells on the belly are crushed (set).

The second scenario would be worse of course, because the crushed wood cells might increase hysteresis. Does anyone have an idea how we can distinguish bethween those two?

lonbow

[simk]

all correct about the hornbows lonbow  in addition you can balance a hornbow by gently heating the bending stronger limb when braced - you will loose reflex instead of removing material.

COMING BACK TO THE ORIGINAL QUESTION 

Reflex -technically seen - shows the operation-level of a bow; the more reflex the better the energy storage. It's off course only one factor in the equation of a "good" bow. For me personally an important one. I didn't know how to distingish between "deformation" and "set" to use your terminology, therefore I personally don't... Also I think I can undo "set" with heat 




 

[HanibalLecter(InnerSmile)]

^ All unsourced misinfo.

[HH~]

Does not happen often but when it does its a gem. For hunting if I can get a string on somethins gonna get an arra put in it. Does it matter if bows hold 3' of reflex. .  .Not a damn bit. Think the SB with the most kills I have (prolly 20-25) is a sting follow HHB with low string tension at brace. It's a killer and all those whitetails dont know it has No reflex at all.

Here's a new Gem that I put 4" reflex in and after keeping it strung for several hours and 50 arrows it hold 3" every time. It's a killah!

HH~

[boomhowzer]

For me, the shear beauty of a bow bending slightly away from the handle, like the picture HH just posted, is worth striving for. I don't think its overrated. When bowyers describe their bows, they mention the length, the weight, and the set. So what do you think we should replace the 'set' statistic with?

[boomhowzer]

Also, there's no coup de grace on this website. Nobody is killing anyone else. If you search through most of these folks posting history, you will find that friendliness and sharing knowledge and experience with a positive attitude is the norm.

[PatM]

There is  a coup de grace.  It's called being banned.

[Morgan]

Does not happen often but when it does its a gem. For hunting if I can get a string on somethins gonna get an arra put in it. Does it matter if bows hold 3' of reflex. .  .Not a damn bit. Think the SB with the most kills I have (prolly 20-25) is a sting follow HHB with low string tension at brace. It's a killer and all those whitetails dont know it has No reflex at all.

Here's a new Gem that I put 4" reflex in and after keeping it strung for several hours and 50 arrows it hold 3" every time. It's a killah!

HH~

Fine looking bow hedge.

[scp]

Are we going to ban people from talking about bow making if they cannot make bows themselves because of disability?

[Dances with squirrels]

Where am i? 

[RyanY]

I think there’s also a work trade off where it’s more difficult and more effort to maintain a high amount of reflex versus a smaller amount. Even with increased energy storage, the increased mass needed to maintain reflex may be a negative trade off. The balance of factors within bow performance is so fickle that there doesn’t seem to be a clear winner at this point. I think of Arvin’s flight bow with fairly minimal reflex. Surely a bow could be made with more reflex but would it be as good? I agree with sleek that low set is definitely a bigger factor than overall reflex. He and Steve have proven their ideas with their flight shooting prowess.