Tree bark as a belly material in 5-curve bows

[HanibalLecter(InnerSmile)]

Hey guys,


https://www.google.com/books/edition/Masters_of_the_Steppe_The_Impact_of_the/W6MWEAAAQBAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=fruit+tree+bark+bow+scythian&pg=PA110&printsec=frontcover



^ In the above link the author describes a European Scythian reflex-deflex bow that uses fruit tree bark (apple or pear) as a belly material. It had an oak wood core and was backed with sinew. I never heard of anyone using tree bark as a belly material before. What are the properties like? This bow has hornbow-tier morphology and is extremely short. Have we been sleeping on pear bark as a belly material?

[bownarra]

A 30" bow with 15" arrows.....made out of entirely unsuitable materials....likely just a burial 'bow', maybe good enough to string but thats it. The bark would do nothing.
Awaits predictable reply

Have you made a replica to see how well it shoots???

[HanibalLecter(InnerSmile)]

A 30" bow with 15" arrows.....made out of entirely unsuitable materials....likely just a burial 'bow', maybe good enough to string but thats it. The bark would do nothing.
Awaits predictable reply

Have you made a replica to see how well it shoots???

It clearly implies that this bow was functional and that the pear bark plates were used to make it more resilient when firing.


The Scythians used 30" bows:





Anyway yes I have made a replica of this bow and it fires 15" arrows at 227fps.

[HanibalLecter(InnerSmile)]

Note that, like the Scythian horn bows from Yanghai, the working limbs of the bow are thicker than their width.

[Del the cat]

Bark is generally used as warterproofing or decoration, its structural properties won't help performance.
Del

[AndrewS]

... in the book they wrote, that the belly is reinforced with wood or treebark. ....

Thus, the analysis is not clear-cut. One can now ponder whether wood or bark would be better..... and for what purpose they would be better?
Bark as moisture protection is known from many bows, quivers and food containers. There are composite bows that are completely wrapped with bark. There are composite bows that are covered with bark only on one side (usually the back) and there are wood sinew composite bows without horn.....

Now let's put 1 and 1 together and conclude ....?

[HanibalLecter(InnerSmile)]

... in the book they wrote, that the belly is reinforced with wood or treebark. ....

Thus, the analysis is not clear-cut. One can now ponder whether wood or bark would be better..... and for what purpose they would be better?
Bark as moisture protection is known from many bows, quivers and food containers. There are composite bows that are completely wrapped with bark. There are composite bows that are covered with bark only on one side (usually the back) and there are wood sinew composite bows without horn.....

Now let's put 1 and 1 together and conclude ....?

No, they state very clearly that the belly of the bow is reinforced with a plate of fruit tree bark (pear or apple). The bow was also spirally wrapped with a different species of bark, but the bark plates were attached to the belly like horn.

[Pat B]

Will you post pics of your replica?

[Yooper Bowyer]

Note that, like the Scythian horn bows from Yanghai, the working limbs of the bow are thicker than their width.

On a 30" bow?    I'd have to see that in action.

If you think the bark idea would work go ahead and try it. 

[AndrewS]

Maybe we just read differently?

Quote: " In order to give the bow greater elasticity and strength a thin plate of wood or fruit tree bark - most likely wild apple or pear, both medium density species- was attachedt o the belly."

Pics would be nice. So far I have seen only replicas of scytian bows, that were  build as research for a book by a german bowyer (the replicas haven't bark as a  belly,  but they have also no horn as belly. The bows are wood and sinew composites).

[Del the cat]

I hate it when someone quotes some random thing they've read or heard.
They then ask a question and proceed to argue with the answer!
Neither party has first hand experience of the random idea so it is impossible to have a meaningful discussion especially when the OP refuses to acknowledge the vast breadth of experience of the forum.
Just because something has been written doesn't mean it's correct, plenty of people with little or no bow making expertise have written nonsense, even some bowyers who should know better!
If you really want info on a theory, do the experiments, build a bow and post the results.
Most of us here are happy to learn, to be shown to be wrong and eat humble pie if necessary!
Del
BTW. I've heard that medieval archers had strings made of rhubarb... has anyone any experience of this.. what do you all think? 

[Hawkdancer]

Strings from rhubarb sounds better than trying to eat the darned stuff -left alone, it might have long enough fibers for cordage ,
Hawkdancer

[JW_Halverson]

I hate it when someone quotes some random thing they've read or heard.
They then ask a question and proceed to argue with the answer!
Neither party has first hand experience of the random idea so it is impossible to have a meaningful discussion especially when the OP refuses to acknowledge the vast breadth of experience of the forum.
Just because something has been written doesn't mean it's correct, plenty of people with little or no bow making expertise have written nonsense, even some bowyers who should know better!
If you really want info on a theory, do the experiments, build a bow and post the results.
Most of us here are happy to learn, to be shown to be wrong and eat humble pie if necessary!
Del
BTW. I've heard that medieval archers had strings made of rhubarb... has anyone any experience of this.. what do you all think? 

A majority of his posts so far have been of this sort. It was not that long ago that we had someone of the very same mindset that created enough havoc with their infernal pot stirring that they eventually got themselves booted.

I am not altogether sure that person has not re-spawned with a new moniker.

[scp]

It would be simple enough to get some well dried bark strips, heat treat them, and saturate them with hide glue; then see if they have any good compressive strength or not. Anyone?

Didn't someone try to create horn substitute by chemically melting finger nails or something like that? Probably not in this forum. You never know. Who would have thought brittle glass fibers can have so much tensile strength when they are combined with epoxy? Until someone tried.

[Morgan]

It would be simple enough to get some well dried bark strips, heat treat them, and saturate them with hide glue; then see if they have any good compressive strength or not. Anyone?

Didn't someone try to create horn substitute by chemically melting finger nails or something like that? Probably not in this forum. You never know. Who would have thought brittle glass fibers can have so much tensile strength when they are combined with epoxy? Until someone tried.

You make a good point. That is why people are asking the posters who are posing the question to try it and post their results. There are many amazing bows being made now out of woods that were thought of as being unusable or unsuitable not too long ago. In order to spend my time experimenting I have to believe that I can at some point have desired results. If the OP thinks it will work, he should spend his or her time trying, not ask others to do so for him or her.
 I know I can make a good self bow, and can make one with mild to moderate reflex fairly well. I however have tried several times to make recurve bows and those attempts have mostly been failures. If one went off of my experiments with making recurves, one would say that recurring the limb of a wooden mow is not possible to a completely satisfactory end. We know that is not true though; not because of written text but physical examples of awesome recurve bows. If I had experimented recurving bow tips going off of written text alone, I would have declared the notion of satisfactorily doing so not possible.
Prove the theory is possible through experiments then argue as such, not post a theory and argue with the opinion of folks with countless man hours involved in bow making.