Author Topic: Why not pinch grip??  (Read 4808 times)

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The Zen Master

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Re: Why not pinch grip??
« Reply #15 on: March 23, 2020, 09:10:05 am »
Is it just as effective in killing animals? I have read laubins book and was really surprised with all the accounts of indians killing the Spaniards and such. Do you think some of those were exaggerations? Or could it have been that the indians were ones to be greatly feared by them? Were they that accurate with short draws and floating anchors at long distances?

Read Nine Years Among the Indians by Hermann Lehmann - he was kidnapped by Indians and actually became a Comanche. He briefly describes the archery skills he developed as an "Indian."

Furthermore, Native Americans were "raised" making and shooting their bows from early childhood - it is not unreasonable to presume they were deadly shots.

Offline willie

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Re: Why not pinch grip??
« Reply #16 on: March 23, 2020, 09:23:01 am »
Quote
Can you humour a rookie and explain why anyone would want to use this grip over split finger or 3 under?
if you prefer snapshooting (with instinctive aiming?)

Offline bassman

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Re: Why not pinch grip??
« Reply #17 on: March 23, 2020, 10:04:09 am »
Jim Hamm's theory of the pinch grip. The bow arm push was used to pull the arrow loose from the pinch finger grip to prevent bow breakage, and arrows were grooved ,and heat treated so they would stay true.  I have built west coast bows,and plain's bows, and tried some of the  grips. I shot terrible, but they learned from an early age to shoot that way. They had to kill to eat,so they were very good archers in my opinion, and even better hunters at being able to stock their game at close range, and make the kill. JMO

The Zen Master

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Re: Why not pinch grip??
« Reply #18 on: March 23, 2020, 11:41:03 am »
Read Plenty Coups - Chief of the Crow, and, Empire of the Summer Moon. These are not archery / primitive archery books, but I guarantee you will learn a lot about Native Americans, including some of their hunting and fighting skills.

Plenty Coups is the best book I ever read - I'm not kidding.

Empire of the Summer Moon is fantastic.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2020, 11:45:43 am by The Zen Master »

Offline bradsmith2010

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Re: Why not pinch grip??
« Reply #19 on: March 23, 2020, 12:35:09 pm »
The mediterrian grip is just easier...if we were all shooting self nocks,,.there would be more pinch grip..

Offline EdwardS

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Re: Why not pinch grip??
« Reply #20 on: March 23, 2020, 02:42:56 pm »
All right, while I wait for my partner in crime to wake up from her nap I'll tell what I know.

I started out at the age of 5 shooting.  I started with the simple pinch draw and when my bows got heavier I graduated to the two fingers on the string pinch grip.  We used the simple one bowfishing where we often only pulled to our chests.

Drawing an arrow to me is a set of calculations as to how much of the bow's energy to put behind this arrow to get it to go where I want.  I did not always pull to full draw-I learned my bow's energy intimately and used it to determine if I needed a full draw or a chest draw.  With a heavier bow that chest draw snap shot can still be lethal.  I practiced both draws extensively-sometimes a whole day shooting at cornstalks during summer break.  The goal was to lodge your arrow in the cornstalk from 10-20 yards away.  Bisecting it worked too.

In college I studied Asian archery.  A full draw there is longer than either draw I knew.  But using pinch grip put me in good steading for using thumb draw then.

My arrows growing up were barely notched with a knife to sit on the string.  They also had more bulbous nocks to assist with the pinch.  Pop had a set of two-fletch with built up sinew nocks.  Pity they're gone now.  But they're made nothing like today's self nocks.  A Turkish nock is closer to what we made.

As to the lethality of Native bows and the records of them shooting?  Pop's warbow had to draw 90#.  He could hit a dime at ten yards.  He could stalk silently enough to count coup on an alligator.  He had mastered the so-called "Parthian" shot if something presented itself on the fly.  I have often wondered if he truly was magical.  I never outshot the man.  I could draw more at my max, but he was always the better shot.  I've seen better shots, like the two gentlemen who can hit a thrown aspirin, but I've never seen a better overall hunter.

Pinch grip with the right equipment is just as lethal as any other style, and lends itself to shooting rapidly and flexibly.  The lack of a predefined anchor point leaves you more able to determine your arrow's trajectory, which can mean the difference between dinner or no dinner.  I know it's not "proper form," but we developed it to an art form here before you guys ever arrived to tell us we had it wrong.  Even having been taught Manchu archery, I still prefer what I learned.  I just know it better.

If the sun's still up when Karen wakes up, I'll get a picture of both types of draw for you guys.  I'm realizing this information is about to die out-I need to preserve it any way possible.  People who learned like me are few and far between now.

The Zen Master

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Re: Why not pinch grip??
« Reply #21 on: March 23, 2020, 03:01:29 pm »
All right, while I wait for my partner in crime to wake up from her nap I'll tell what I know.

I started out at the age of 5 shooting.  I started with the simple pinch draw and when my bows got heavier I graduated to the two fingers on the string pinch grip.  We used the simple one bowfishing where we often only pulled to our chests.

Drawing an arrow to me is a set of calculations as to how much of the bow's energy to put behind this arrow to get it to go where I want.  I did not always pull to full draw-I learned my bow's energy intimately and used it to determine if I needed a full draw or a chest draw.  With a heavier bow that chest draw snap shot can still be lethal.  I practiced both draws extensively-sometimes a whole day shooting at cornstalks during summer break.  The goal was to lodge your arrow in the cornstalk from 10-20 yards away.  Bisecting it worked too.

In college I studied Asian archery.  A full draw there is longer than either draw I knew.  But using pinch grip put me in good steading for using thumb draw then.

My arrows growing up were barely notched with a knife to sit on the string.  They also had more bulbous nocks to assist with the pinch.  Pop had a set of two-fletch with built up sinew nocks.  Pity they're gone now.  But they're made nothing like today's self nocks.  A Turkish nock is closer to what we made.

As to the lethality of Native bows and the records of them shooting?  Pop's warbow had to draw 90#.  He could hit a dime at ten yards.  He could stalk silently enough to count coup on an alligator.  He had mastered the so-called "Parthian" shot if something presented itself on the fly.  I have often wondered if he truly was magical.  I never outshot the man.  I could draw more at my max, but he was always the better shot.  I've seen better shots, like the two gentlemen who can hit a thrown aspirin, but I've never seen a better overall hunter.

Pinch grip with the right equipment is just as lethal as any other style, and lends itself to shooting rapidly and flexibly.  The lack of a predefined anchor point leaves you more able to determine your arrow's trajectory, which can mean the difference between dinner or no dinner.  I know it's not "proper form," but we developed it to an art form here before you guys ever arrived to tell us we had it wrong.  Even having been taught Manchu archery, I still prefer what I learned.  I just know it better.

If the sun's still up when Karen wakes up, I'll get a picture of both types of draw for you guys.  I'm realizing this information is about to die out-I need to preserve it any way possible.  People who learned like me are few and far between now.

Great post.

Wish there was a forum with more information like this.

Offline PatM

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Re: Why not pinch grip??
« Reply #22 on: March 23, 2020, 03:26:07 pm »
It's not likely to ever die out.  It just won't be talked about as much.

Offline Jakesnyder

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Re: Why not pinch grip??
« Reply #23 on: March 23, 2020, 03:55:30 pm »
All great info guys! EdwardS do you have indian in you or who taught you how to shoot? I've asked numerous folks, why do you shoot the way you do. And the answer I keep getting is it's easier or that's how I was taught.

Offline EdwardS

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Re: Why not pinch grip??
« Reply #24 on: March 23, 2020, 04:19:32 pm »
I'm a bit over half Seminole/Mvskoke.  My full-blood grandfather and great-grandfather taught me to shoot.

Offline EdwardS

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Re: Why not pinch grip??
« Reply #25 on: March 23, 2020, 04:34:33 pm »
Putting this in a new post so it shows up.  I generally hate double posting.

https://imgur.com/a/e0j6JS8

I made an Imgur album for you guys with a junk arrow and my latest bow.  This shows both pinch grips (index only on string and three fingers on string) and I've got some other pics I'm working on resizing now.  I purposely did chest draw for you guys so you could see how it is done.  I don't have any arrows long enough for a full draw (this was one of the daughter's arrows at 28") but I imagine you should be able to figure out how it works.

Any questions this doesn't answer I will try to photograph at a later date. 

Bow (which is about to get its own thread) is 45#@28" and 50+ at my 32-36" draw.  This is proof that you can certainly use this draw with hunting weight bows.  I generally draw 36", but my full Manchu draw can max out at 44".  This is due to Marfan syndrome, which gives me a longer armspan than my height (which was originally 6' 7" before my car vs bicycle accident.)  This also gives me arm contractures, so I cannot fully straighten my left arm.  This is just to explain what you see in the pictures.

If anyone has any other questions, just know I'm working on making a nock like I used when I was young to show you guys how that worked as well.

The Zen Master

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Re: Why not pinch grip??
« Reply #26 on: March 23, 2020, 05:53:46 pm »
Photo #6 and after is, I believe, similar to technique described by Jim Hamm in his book, Bows and Arrows of the Native Americans.

I have seen this described elsewhere as a Comanche (pinch) grip.

Offline Traxx

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Re: Why not pinch grip??
« Reply #27 on: March 23, 2020, 06:03:11 pm »

Is it just as effective in killing animals? I have read laubins book and was really surprised with all the accounts of indians killing the Spaniards and such. Do you think some of those were exaggerations? Or could it have been that the indians were ones to be greatly feared by them? Were they that accurate with short draws and floating anchors at long distances?

Most of the Accounts by the Spanish were in reference to the South Eastern People,who used longer bows and longer draw lengths..

Offline aznboi3644

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Re: Why not pinch grip??
« Reply #28 on: March 23, 2020, 06:33:26 pm »
It was weird shooting yesterday i was shooting my 44” maple shortbow that draws 50lb @ 20”.  I was messing around at 10-15 yards with quick chest draws and snap shooting.  I was kinda amazed at how consistently I was placing the arrows in a paper plate sized target.  I was shooting with the two finger under pinch grip. 


Offline bradsmith2010

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Re: Why not pinch grip??
« Reply #29 on: March 23, 2020, 06:47:52 pm »
Cool )P(