Author Topic: Wood bow speed v.s Fibreglass bow speed?  (Read 4517 times)

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Offline mmattockx

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Wood bow speed v.s Fibreglass bow speed?
« on: March 18, 2020, 01:21:04 pm »
It seems that wood bows can be just as fast as laminated fibreglass (or carbon fibre) bows when done properly. I can accept that fact, but I am curious about it. I am an engineer and have a solid grasp of structural design along with mechanics of materials and find this pretty surprising, considering the material property advantages that fibreglass and carbon fibre have over the various bow woods.

Can someone explain the details of how this is possible?


Thanks,
Mark

Offline PEARL DRUMS

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Re: Wood bow speed v.s Fibreglass bow speed?
« Reply #1 on: March 18, 2020, 01:25:55 pm »
My opinion? Its very possible, but rarely happens as often as we hear it about it. I own 45-50 bows from self, to glass to all wood/boo laminated. Nothing holds a candle to a well built glass recurve. Its clear as a bell when you shoot it next to a self bow of equal draw weight arrow after arrow. 
Only when the last tree has died and the last river has been poisoned and the last fish has been caught will we realize we cannot eat money.

bownarra

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Re: Wood bow speed v.s Fibreglass bow speed?
« Reply #2 on: March 18, 2020, 01:55:46 pm »
By optimizing the design for the materials you are using.....usually through a whole lot of trial and error! My fastest glass/carbon bows are around 192fps @ 10gpp. My best hornbows are about the same. I know which I prefer making that's for sure!
A lot of glass bows I've actually tested are pretty poor performers but they will do it indefinitely. Neither glass nor carbon excel in compression.

Offline willie

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Re: Wood bow speed v.s Fibreglass bow speed?
« Reply #3 on: March 18, 2020, 04:55:35 pm »
Quote
By optimizing the design for the materials you are using.
that and using the best possible materials utilizing the best possible craftsmanship, etc

Offline mmattockx

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Re: Wood bow speed v.s Fibreglass bow speed?
« Reply #4 on: March 18, 2020, 06:49:40 pm »
By optimizing the design for the materials you are using.....usually through a whole lot of trial and error!

I understand that, but a fully optimized wood bow shouldn't be able to run with a fully optimized composite bow. Or at least I can't see how it should be able to, based on the materials.

You are correct that neither carbon or fibreglass are that great in compression, but no woods really are, either. A well supported carbon skin should be able to handle stresses that will pulverize any bow wood available. Maybe the composites aren't being optimized for speed, but for other qualities? Or there is lots of bad design out there, as you mention?

It isn't a big deal either way, but it does make me wonder about the deals. The engineer in me wants to know why things happen, not just that they do.


Mark

Offline avcase

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Re: Wood bow speed v.s Fibreglass bow speed?
« Reply #5 on: March 18, 2020, 06:53:39 pm »
This is an interesting question and is an area I have spent a lot of time studying over the last several years.  The best possible performance of a bow depends on the the mechanical properties of the materials used to make the bow, and string. It also depends on the testing parameters that the bow is judged against.  It turns out that a bow made of suitable bow wood uses the nearly the full potential of the wood it is made out of to provide the structure, and energy storage capacity for a decent 40-50 pound bow drawn to 26-28 inches.  This coincides pretty well with the needs of many archers. With a modern low-stretch string, an optimal all-wood now can keep up pretty well with modern composite designs.

For the same draw length and draw weight, modern glass composite designs typically don’t even come remotely close to taking full advantage of the energy storage and structural properties of the glass for a typical 50 pound draw weight at 28” draw length. In order to achieve to push glass as close to its limits as the wood bow, the bow would need to be made so narrow, and so thick, that it will not have enough lateral stability to even function.  It will just end up bending sideways. So these glass bows end up much heavier than they theoretically should be.

In contrast, glass is really capable of producing some mind blowing performance when the design of the bow is optimized to take full advantage of its properties. For example, crossbow limbs in excess of 300 pounds of draw weight, and short draw lengths which are capable of sending a hunting weight arrow downrange at 400 fps.  These bows are not one shot wonders either. They even carry a manufacturers warranty and these will wear out the one shooting them before the bow limbs give out. A wood bow designed to the same extremely heavy draw weight and shortish draw length would have to be built with such wide and long limbs, that it couldn’t come close to the same level of performance.

Horn and sinew composites are in a similar bucket as the glass bows. If the draw weight is low-to-moderate, and draw length is long, then they don’t perform much better than an all-wood bow. But heavy draw weight designs take much better advantage of the materials and performance really starts to shine.

Carbon fiber is its own unique animal. It depends on how the carbon is configured. Unidirectional carbon has superior structural performance to glass, but it is inferior at storing strain energy. This forces carbon designs to have more working limb than a glass bow. A typical 50 pound at 28” draw bow made with unidirectional carbon is also pushed closer to its material limits compared to a typical glass bow designed to the same draw length and draw weight parameters.

There’s much more to it, but this covers it at a high level.

Alan

Offline mmattockx

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Re: Wood bow speed v.s Fibreglass bow speed?
« Reply #6 on: March 18, 2020, 06:59:44 pm »
Alan,

Thanks for that explanation. It makes sense if we are getting everything out of the wood bows but are not able to properly take advantage of the composite materials for a hand bow.


Mark

Offline PatM

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Re: Wood bow speed v.s Fibreglass bow speed?
« Reply #7 on: March 18, 2020, 07:07:01 pm »
You could have just explored how woods as diverse as ERC and Ipe can do the same things more or less.   No need to even mention glass and carbon. ;)

Offline mmattockx

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Re: Wood bow speed v.s Fibreglass bow speed?
« Reply #8 on: March 18, 2020, 07:12:16 pm »
You could have just explored how woods as diverse as ERC and Ipe can do the same things more or less.   No need to even mention glass and carbon. ;)

In the end, it's all really the same question of optimizing the design for the material used. I promise not to speak of those devil materials again.


Mark

Offline Hawkdancer

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Re: Wood bow speed v.s Fibreglass bow speed?
« Reply #9 on: March 18, 2020, 11:30:48 pm »
Should I ever decide to learn how to use my my chronograph for a comparison shoot, I will be sure to disguise the "devil bows"  by appropriate pseudonym!  I have one of each, but I am a hoarder of sorts, and sentimentality gets into the situation!  Science, my boy, science!  You have tweaked my interest! (lol) (SH) >:D
Hawkdancer
Life is far too serious to be taken that way!
Jerry

Offline mmattockx

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Re: Wood bow speed v.s Fibreglass bow speed?
« Reply #10 on: March 18, 2020, 11:48:45 pm »
Science, my boy, science!  You have tweaked my interest! (lol) (SH) >:D
Hawkdancer

I will be interested to hear of your results if you do the test. It isn't that hard to find info, though. DC (among others here) seems to regularly make bows that shoot into the high 180fps range at 10gpp and there is lots of data floating around showing that higher end target recurves aren't much better than that with the same 10gpp. That is a heavy arrow by target standards, though, and they may have more of an advantage with the lighter arrows they typically shoot (more like 9gpp or less) but I can't say.


Mark

Offline willie

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Re: Wood bow speed v.s Fibreglass bow speed?
« Reply #11 on: March 19, 2020, 01:16:13 am »
Many of the higher end recurves arn't designed for speed as much as they are built for accuracy and smoothness for the target shooters. the fg speed demons probably  just moved on to wheelbows

bownarra

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Re: Wood bow speed v.s Fibreglass bow speed?
« Reply #12 on: March 19, 2020, 02:51:02 am »
How can one bow be more 'accurate' than another? :)

Offline PEARL DRUMS

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Re: Wood bow speed v.s Fibreglass bow speed?
« Reply #13 on: March 19, 2020, 07:04:55 am »
One has properly matched arrows and one doesn't :)

Only when the last tree has died and the last river has been poisoned and the last fish has been caught will we realize we cannot eat money.

Offline PatM

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Re: Wood bow speed v.s Fibreglass bow speed?
« Reply #14 on: March 19, 2020, 07:20:28 am »
 He meant to say that other bows are less accurate, not that target bows are more accurate. ;)