Author Topic: Reflex gain  (Read 2048 times)

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Offline DC

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Reflex gain
« on: February 07, 2020, 07:02:57 pm »
By reflex gain I'm talking about when you are tillering a backed bow that has had reflex pulled into it during glue up( Perry). I've mentioned this before and haven't got a lot of response. I guess there's not a lot of people doing this. For those that have I started tillering one today. When I took it off the caul it had 2 3/4" reflex. I put a longish string on it and it pulled 40#@14". Then I tillered for a few hours(with time off for a nap ;)) I took off around an eighth of an inch of wood over most of the limbs. While I was tillering I kept measuring the reflex. When I quit for the day I had 3 3/4" of reflex. I'm now at 40#@15". Not much gain for a days tillering. Mind you I am going slow because these things have been biting me lately. I'm thinking that the reflex gain is compensating for the amount of wood I'm taking off. Does that sound logical? The thing is though, sooner or later this has to stop. I'm thinkin' it goes like this-
When I bend the belly wood and glue the boo to it and take it off the caul the belly tries to straighten out. The boo stops it but not until the back and belly are in equilbrium. The back stretches and the belly compresses. Then I start to tiller and this weakens the belly. Now the boo starts to win and this pulls the bow into more reflex. The more I weaken the belly the more this happens. What has to happen for this to stop? Maybe the boo returns to no a stretch condition??? Any ideas?

Offline PatM

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Re: Reflex gain
« Reply #1 on: February 07, 2020, 07:09:17 pm »
This is very well known.  It is just a strength battle between the two sides.  It tends to stop once you start actually compressing the belly and inducing a bit of set that even the shorter back piece can't hide.

Offline DC

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Re: Reflex gain
« Reply #2 on: February 07, 2020, 07:16:51 pm »
Thanks Pat. I've had problems in the past with what I called "all of a sudden". I would be tillering with not a lot happening and then all of a sudden I was under weight. It quite often happened right after bracing. Do you think this "strength battle" could contribute to this?

Offline Badger

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Re: Reflex gain
« Reply #3 on: February 07, 2020, 07:46:29 pm »
Thanks Pat. I've had problems in the past with what I called "all of a sudden". I would be tillering with not a lot happening and then all of a sudden I was under weight. It quite often happened right after bracing. Do you think this "strength battle" could contribute to this?

  This is one of the reasons I start off pulling the bow to full draw weight right from the very beginning on the long string. When an R/d bow is not braced and we start tillering we get sudden changes of string angle which changes where the limb will bend. Putting full weight from the start helps to prevent this.

Offline DC

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Re: Reflex gain
« Reply #4 on: February 07, 2020, 08:57:23 pm »
I've always gone full draw weight from square one. Think that's one of the first things I learned on here :D.

Offline PatM

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Re: Reflex gain
« Reply #5 on: February 07, 2020, 10:11:55 pm »
I've always gone full draw weight from square one. Think that's one of the first things I learned on here :D.

 I do think that the weights you are going for make things a bit more sensitive.

Offline DC

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Re: Reflex gain
« Reply #6 on: February 07, 2020, 11:21:07 pm »
I do think that the weights you are going for make things a bit more sensitive.

 You mean I'm too light, so maybe 50# would be easier?

Offline PatM

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Re: Reflex gain
« Reply #7 on: February 07, 2020, 11:28:10 pm »
I do think that the weights you are going for make things a bit more sensitive.

 You mean I'm too light, so maybe 50# would be easier?

Yes.  People always mention making kids bows being hard to tiller because fewer scrapes make a big  difference.  The tipping point for that is likely close to 40 pounds.

bownarra

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Re: Reflex gain
« Reply #8 on: February 08, 2020, 01:09:18 am »
There is no 'tipping point' it is linear.
You are simply making your glue-ups too thick. It also sounds like your bellies are too thick. Better to have one more lam than an overly thick belly. With these sort of bows it is always much,much better to glue-up close to finished weight.
Make one bow as a test piece. Then simply use that bow to provide more accurate stack info. If you don't go this route you will always have problems.
Thin lams are good :) Thick lams forced into a shape are always going to mess with you.

Offline Stick Bender

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Re: Reflex gain
« Reply #9 on: February 08, 2020, 04:21:07 am »
 I agree with Bownara I think the closer you are to your stack thickness & proper smooth taper before going beyound brace the far less stresses your putting on the wood (less set) the same apply's for self bows to I think , there are guys I know that are making D/R BBO,S  with close to right stack and taper before even bending that are getting great profiles and performance with little tiller, but even at that there is always minor variances from one limb to the next but with natural materials you probably run the risk of missing your draw weight goals easier !
If you fear failure you will never Try !

Offline Dances with squirrels

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Re: Reflex gain
« Reply #10 on: February 08, 2020, 06:51:26 am »
Bownarra nailed it, but I want to address some of your other questions too.

"I'm thinking that the reflex gain is compensating for the amount of wood I'm taking off. Does that sound logical?"

Basically yes.

"When I bend the belly wood and glue the boo to it and take it off the caul the belly tries to straighten out. The boo stops it but not until the back and belly are in equilbrium. The back stretches and the belly compresses."

Well not really. At this point the belly is under tension. At least as relevant as the back and belly simply 'opposing one another' are the materials' relationships to the glue line. Once off the form, they find a temporary 'equilibrium', though there will always be strain between them. As you remove belly wood, you begin to give some advantage to the other side, and the bow blank gains reflex. So you remove more... and it gains more... so you remove more... and so on. Then sometimes, all of a sudden it seems, it comes around and you're under weight.

Prestressed bows are inherently stronger for their thickness than other types of bows. Even though it can gain  reflex as we remove belly material, are we removing some prestressed properties and inherent strengths? Does this have anything to do with why 'all of a sudden' it comes around, and we struggle to make weight afterwards?

Pulling to target weight from the beginning of the tillering process isn't the solution with these. Say we pull to target weight and it hits it very early. That means we glued a bow into reflex with too much wood on the belly, and removing it is what can cause this thing we're talking about.

When I glue up a bamboo backed bow, trilam, etc... I DON'T want it able to pull to target weight early in the draw. But I'm not just going to yank it all the way down until I hit target weight either. I'm going to shape, tiller, and exercise it along the way. If I did well in advance, with minimal wood removal, I'll hit target weight farther down the tree.

Like Bownarra said, the key to eliminating, or minimizing, this 'phenomenon', and I'd add, to make this a more predictable, straightforward, and successful endeavor, is to have your material closer to finished thickness, and taper, prior to glue up.

I grind belly wood for backed bows, trilams and such the same way I grind lams for glass bows... in my thickness sander, often on the lam sled, aiming for just over finished thickness, always with at least one piece tapered in advance too.... it allows them to bend easier into the glue-up profile, helps eliminate the reflex gaining you're talking about, allows me to more quickly and easily hit target weight and with good tiller early. With these bows, the bulk of the work is best done as prep work. After glue up, it should be gravy.

Leave yourself a little extra wood, but as little as you can safely get away with.


Straight wood may make a better bow, but crooked wood makes a better bowyer

Offline DC

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Re: Reflex gain
« Reply #11 on: February 08, 2020, 09:49:39 am »
Back to Perry reflex again ;D. When I read Dan's explanation of what he does, he specifically said that the belly lam had to be thick in order to produce as much tension as possible between the back and belly. Because of this I thought that reflex gain was a good thing. I think I still do but I'm always open to change. It may make it more difficult but if it results in a faster bow, so be it. I don't make multi lam bows because of the need for getting the lam thickness right ahead of time. I like tillering and the process of reducing a big stick into a little stick. Gluing together a bunch of predetermined lams just seems too, I don't know, automated I guess. And don't you wind up with the same bow every time? I'm probably wrong there :D.
All that said my last half dozen bows have been pretty cookie cutter. I'm just about out of Yew and I don't know that I'll go looking for more. I've got enough other staves to keep me for the rest of my bow making life so after the Yew and Bamboo are gone I'll probably forget this quest for speed and try to make a pretty bow. Just another 7 fps and I can rest ;D ;D

Offline bradsmith2010

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Re: Reflex gain
« Reply #12 on: February 08, 2020, 10:10:52 am »
I think leaving the. Bow. Braced a few hours a day as u tiller helps the wood stabilize in a gentle way
I know you have a weight you like to shoot,, but just for exerimentation,,
why not just shoot the weight it comes out with little tiller,, to see if there is a performance difference,, you can always tiller it down if need be,,
tiller it out till it bends even,, maybe not full draw,, then pull it to full draw on machine,,and shoot chrono,,
youll hit 200
« Last Edit: February 08, 2020, 11:41:28 am by bradsmith2010 »

Offline PatM

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Re: Reflex gain
« Reply #13 on: February 08, 2020, 12:40:03 pm »
Back to Perry reflex again ;D. When I read Dan's explanation of what he does, he specifically said that the belly lam had to be thick in order to produce as much tension as possible between the back and belly. Because of this I thought that reflex gain was a good thing. I think I still do but I'm always open to change. It may make it more difficult but if it results in a faster bow, so be it. I don't make multi lam bows because of the need for getting the lam thickness right ahead of time. I like tillering and the process of reducing a big stick into a little stick. Gluing together a bunch of predetermined lams just seems too, I don't know, automated I guess. And don't you wind up with the same bow every time? I'm probably wrong there :D.
All that said my last half dozen bows have been pretty cookie cutter. I'm just about out of Yew and I don't know that I'll go looking for more. I've got enough other staves to keep me for the rest of my bow making life so after the Yew and Bamboo are gone I'll probably forget this quest for speed and try to make a pretty bow. Just another 7 fps and I can rest ;D ;D

 What does Dan know though?  He's a hack compared to mikey. ;)