Approaching the tiller near the Fades

[Carl Galvin]

Hello Everyone,

I was wondering how you more experienced bowyers have learned to approach the tiller near the fades, in order to get near the most even tiller on both limbs in that area.  It seems that, due to the weight burden on the fade area while drawing, this area is the most susceptible to hinging errors.  I have taken to using the gizmo but have read that it doesnt help with the area near the fades.  Any advice is much appreciated!  Thanks!

[gfugal]

The gizmo needs 3 or more inches either side of the area it's checking to work correctly. Therefore the fades really can't be checked with it, you just have to resort to doing it by eye. The fades really don't bend much if at all, It's right out of the fades that starts bending, and yes it can develop into a hinge if you're not careful. One thing I've done is measure the distanced from the string to a section of the limb with a tape measure when the bow is braced.

[Carl Galvin]

Thanks gfugal!

[Badger]

   I just hinged one right outside the fades last week, I ended up with a 42# bow instead of a 50# bow. I took it too far on floor tiller. This is one reason I like to go to the tree while it is still far to heavy.

[Eric Krewson]

Watch my Gizmo video where I explain tillering some this area.

I just added a comment to the video when a guy asked if he should remove wood from the bows back to get the fades moving.

Here is my comment;

All the wood removal  during the tillering process is on the belly of the bow. I make almost all my bows out of osage and have chased one continuous growth ring from one end of the stave to the other. If I removed wood from the back of the bow I would violate this one ring on the back and could cause a break and subsequent limb failure. If the fades are bending you will see the gap widen between the board and the back of the bow. My tool of choice for careful wood removal in the fade out area is an orbital sander. If you use a scraper always pull it from the limb to the handle, if you go handle to limb you will have a tendency to dish out a place at the end of the fade and make a weak spot. You can go either way with an orbital sander and not make a weak spot or get the washboard like grain steps you get with a scraper.
 

[Del the cat]

I tend to get the middle of the bow moving slightly first (at full draw weight) and then get the rest of the limbs coming round (of course the outers are moving to some extent top start with... (it would be daft to have rigid limbs with only the middle moving).
Del

[George Tsoukalas]

Most of my tillers are elliptical. I want the wood to start moving there and increase going outward.

I start immediately...right from floor tiller to accomplish that purpose. I mark the area where I want the bending to start with a heavy pencil line. Later and if need-be I work the area just beyond the fades while the stave is strung.

The best way to avoid hinging is for me to use a scraper and work slowly. No hurry. This is my hobby. Go slowly.

Jawge

[Carl Galvin]

Thanks you all, I appreciate it.  Great invention by the way, Mr. Krewson!! And great video!

[Springbuck]

I tend to get the middle of the bow moving slightly first (at full draw weight) and then get the rest of the limbs coming round.
Del

I do it mostly like this, but I guess I'm daft...... .  Honestly, it has upped my averages both finishing bows without breaking them, and hitting weight, but it takes some experience (just a "feel", really) about how the bow is going to act based on length, species, design, width, and crown, etc.

I am usually drying staves pretty quickly, so have them roughed out to an approximate thickness (say, an inch) all along the limbs with a thicker handle.  It's been clamped essentially straight, and it's roughed out to width.

 I do a little floor tiller check just to see how MUCH too stiff it really is, and refine the thickness using a caliper all the way down the limbs.  I start shaping the handle dips at the same time.

Once the thickness is very consistent (allowing for knots) I shape in the front profile to "outside of the line" and go to the consistent reduction method from the TBB.    The method is to rough up the belly surface with a rasp, then use a scraper to remove ALL the rasp marks.   Then I check for high spots or mistakes and do it again.

  Next, I get the stave on the tree.   Each rasp/scrape pass helps perfect the slope of the fades and removes a pound or two of draw weight.  I may do a couple passes in a row at first.  I check the bend on the tree, only the intended draw weight.  Nothing moves at first.  But, since the limbs are consistently thick and fades are shaped, I KNOW that the area right at the bottom of the fadeouts WILL bend first.  Has to.

  The instant I see any bend in those first few inches, I stop and catch the other limb up withe the same rasp and scrape routine.  With both bending I get just a couple or three inches of tip movement, and the rest of the limb will look stiff and straight.   I mark those bending areas (sometimes duct tape it) and don't touch until later.  Then, I keep doing the same thing on the rest of the limb.  The bend gradually sort of moves down the limb from middle to tips.  As each section starts to bend, I stop rasping there and mark it, etc..  usually by the time I can get a string on, the limbs are mostly bending right and I just need to tweak them as I reduce weight and increase draw length.

[gfugal]

I tend to get the middle of the bow moving slightly first (at full draw weight) and then get the rest of the limbs coming round.
Del

I do it mostly like this, but I guess I'm daft...... .  Honestly, it has upped my averages both finishing bows without breaking them, and hitting weight, but it takes some experience (just a "feel", really) about how the bow is going to act based on length, species, design, width, and crown, etc.

I am usually drying staves pretty quickly, so have them roughed out to an approximate thickness (say, an inch) all along the limbs with a thicker handle.  It's been clamped essentially straight, and it's roughed out to width.

 I do a little floor tiller check just to see how MUCH too stiff it really is, and refine the thickness using a caliper all the way down the limbs.  I start shaping the handle dips at the same time.

Once the thickness is very consistent (allowing for knots) I shape in the front profile to "outside of the line" and go to the consistent reduction method from the TBB.    The method is to rough up the belly surface with a rasp, then use a scraper to remove ALL the rasp marks.   Then I check for high spots or mistakes and do it again.

  Next, I get the stave on the tree.   Each rasp/scrape pass helps perfect the slope of the fades and removes a pound or two of draw weight.  I may do a couple passes in a row at first.  I check the bend on the tree, only the intended draw weight.  Nothing moves at first.  But, since the limbs are consistently thick and fades are shaped, I KNOW that the area right at the bottom of the fadeouts WILL bend first.  Has to.

  The instant I see any bend in those first few inches, I stop and catch the other limb up withe the same rasp and scrape routine.  With both bending I get just a couple or three inches of tip movement, and the rest of the limb will look stiff and straight.   I mark those bending areas (sometimes duct tape it) and don't touch until later.  Then, I keep doing the same thing on the rest of the limb.  The bend gradually sort of moves down the limb from middle to tips.  As each section starts to bend, I stop rasping there and mark it, etc..  usually by the time I can get a string on, the limbs are mostly bending right and I just need to tweak them as I reduce weight and increase draw length.

This is fascinating. That's a much more methodical approach compared to my "hack wherever is my best guess, then check for errors" haha.

[Springbuck]

That's what I used to do!  I am NOT a methodical person.  I have serious clinical ADD for a 47 year old man.

BUT, I began using this method to help young kids, and other new guys on their first bows, online.  So many want to, but even with websites and build-alongs like Sam's and George's, it's easy to get crossed up.  A lot of them don't have any experience with tools to speak of, and a lot of them don't have adult male figures in their lives to help them learn.

A lot of guys would love guidelines and dimensions they can work toward, but that's not how wood bows work best, right?  So I was looking for ways to keep these guys from getting frustrated, failing (which can be the end of the world for a 14 year old, if you have no access to trees or bought the only good board you ever found with your birthday money).  And this is the result.  I came up with a good list of regimented METHODS rather than dimensions, to help guys get a decent crack at it.  Some kids look at an inch thick board and their cheap rasp, and just don't know how to make it all work.  It's daunting.

Doing it this way shows you progress, but keeps you from running ahead of yourself.  My other favorite I preach is how to thickness taper limbs the same way, by dividing a limb into 4ths and doing the whole limb once, then the second, third, and tip section twice, the third and tip three times, and the tip four times.  Then divide it into three sections and do it again.

[Hawkdancer]

Springbuck, that sounds like a good logical sequence to keep you on track.  And come up with a nice finished bow!
Hawkdancer

[Knoll]

Lotsa good stuff here, fellas.   

[Badger]

I tend to get the middle of the bow moving slightly first (at full draw weight) and then get the rest of the limbs coming round.
Del

I do it mostly like this, but I guess I'm daft...... .  Honestly, it has upped my averages both finishing bows without breaking them, and hitting weight, but it takes some experience (just a "feel", really) about how the bow is going to act based on length, species, design, width, and crown, etc.

I am usually drying staves pretty quickly, so have them roughed out to an approximate thickness (say, an inch) all along the limbs with a thicker handle.  It's been clamped essentially straight, and it's roughed out to width.

 I do a little floor tiller check just to see how MUCH too stiff it really is, and refine the thickness using a caliper all the way down the limbs.  I start shaping the handle dips at the same time.

Once the thickness is very consistent (allowing for knots) I shape in the front profile to "outside of the line" and go to the consistent reduction method from the TBB.    The method is to rough up the belly surface with a rasp, then use a scraper to remove ALL the rasp marks.   Then I check for high spots or mistakes and do it again.

  Next, I get the stave on the tree.   Each rasp/scrape pass helps perfect the slope of the fades and removes a pound or two of draw weight.  I may do a couple passes in a row at first.  I check the bend on the tree, only the intended draw weight.  Nothing moves at first.  But, since the limbs are consistently thick and fades are shaped, I KNOW that the area right at the bottom of the fadeouts WILL bend first.  Has to.

  The instant I see any bend in those first few inches, I stop and catch the other limb up withe the same rasp and scrape routine.  With both bending I get just a couple or three inches of tip movement, and the rest of the limb will look stiff and straight.   I mark those bending areas (sometimes duct tape it) and don't touch until later.  Then, I keep doing the same thing on the rest of the limb.  The bend gradually sort of moves down the limb from middle to tips.  As each section starts to bend, I stop rasping there and mark it, etc..  usually by the time I can get a string on, the limbs are mostly bending right and I just need to tweak them as I reduce weight and increase draw length.

   That pretty much describes how I normally do it. Once in a while I get a head of myself but I try not to. I never let the desired draw weight dictate what the bow will finish at. I would much rather have a good shooting 42# with no set than a poor shooting 50#. I do all my tillering right from the beginning at full draw weight. I find I am much less likely to run into surprises.

[PaSteve]

Great information here. Thanks to all of the more experienced bowyers for sharing their knowledge. As I've stated before the hardest part of building a good bow (for me anyway) is the tillering process. My eyes just need to get more educated.