A good example of no set tillering

[Badger]

  Well, cutting back to 35# target weight was a good decision. Hasn't dropped any more weight and I have it out to 26". As the bow thinned down it gained a little reflex. I went ahead and sanded it all up and tommorw get it out to 28" and finish it off. Very good shooter. I will post some pics if it doesn't break. By measurement it hasn't taken any set but by pounds dropped by overcompressing I was able to identify about 2#.

[Stick Bender]

Sounds good looking forward to seeing it !

[joachimM]

I always enjoy your posts, each time again I learn something new.

About those three record-breaking ELBs that you made this way: where and when did you (or some other archer) break these records? I'm curious about such cutting-edge flight shooting, as always.

[Badger]

I always enjoy your posts, each time again I learn something new.

About those three record-breaking ELBs that you made this way: where and when did you (or some other archer) break these records? I'm curious about such cutting-edge flight shooting, as always.

  I was very fortunate to have built the bows for a Hungarian gentleman named Josef Munoz and his family. He is currently the most winning flight shooter in the world, he knows how to shoot. He and his family broke the records at the recent flight shooting event held at the Salt Flats in Wendover Utah.

[bradsmith2010]

congrats again in fine world record shooting bows,,

[Carson (CMB)]

Steve, were those record breaking bows bamboo backed ipe or yew?  I have always felt like yew was going to take a little set no matter what, but that it didn't seem to suffer in performance from an inch or two of set like some other woods do. 

I wonder if the performance you are getting is more a result of a near perfect tillering job than it is the no set aspect? The near perfect tillering being a result of the attempt to have zero set.
 A test would be to take one of your zero set bows and after testing speeds with a 10 gpp arrow, pike it a 1/2" on each end. Let it take its set and then test with a  a new 10 grain per pound arrow. 

Great stuff you are sharing Steve. I appreciate it, even if it is making me rethink what I thought I knew

[Badger]

  Carson, I actually did some extensive testing on that a few years ago. I was trying to find out if hysteresis was inherent to wood or something we induced during the tillering process. The evidence cleary showed that most hysteresis is actually induced by crushed wood fibers. I actually already knew this but wanted to find a test that could prove it. Strong evidence suggests this when shooting bows that have only been tillered out to 23" or so, ever notice how crisp they shoot? That's what actually got me started on actually testing for it.

   I finished up the little low elevation 35# I was working on here in the thread, it actually picked up reflex instead of set, about 3/4 of an inch. Shoots great. I took some pics but can't figure out how to find them on my computer, I think I may have deleted them, not real tec savvy here. I also need some more arrows, I will get with you in a couple of days 5/16 the heaviest spine you don't have. 11/32 is ok if you don't have 5/16.

   The winning bows were boo backed ipe.

[willie]

Strong evidence suggests this when shooting bows that have only been tillered out to 23" or so, ever notice how crisp they shoot? That's what actually got me started on actually testing for it.

I can't help but recall what Tim wrote about another 23" bow a while back

The combined Ishi-Pyramid bow. Steve Gardner and I combined have tested over 5000 bows. This 57# at 23" red oak board bow is the fastest straight self-bow either of us have ever tested at this draw length.

Thanks for sharing, Steve.

[bradsmith2010]

lots of times I start shooting a bow at 20 inches and on out,, the chrono,, tells me what I can expext,,
sometime Badger will chime in that its shooting good for a shorter draw,, and I have found as stated above a short draw bow can shoot surprisingly well,, its counter intuitive becuase of the shorter power stroke, but as stated sometimes the longer draw is a wash because of the set the bow starts taking,,
thats amazing about the 57# at 23,, what was the bow shooting,, fps,,

I will add that if you are shooting the bow through the chrono as you tiller,, if you extend the draw and you dont see an increase in cast,, you know you are compressing the wood,,even if you cant see it in set,,,

[Badger]

  Brad that was so long ago I don't remember, I do remember one boo backed bow I had that was shooting 175 @ 24", when I drew it out to 28" eventually it didn't get any faster and barely gained any weight. I think a good piece of wood can hold its own against fiberglass if we nail the design and tiller.

[bradsmith2010]

thanks,, I see these guys all the time say the longer draw is always better, I have just never quite believed that,,

[Badger]

  Brad, I am pretty well convinced that a lot of us have been slightly under designing our bows for a long time. Every once in a while we get one just right by accident and they shoot like demons. Thats why I say no set tillering is only useful for locking in a design. Once you ahve the design figured out that will give you a minimum of set you have no more need to do the no set tiller process. I still use t because I like to crowd my bending areas and it lets me know when to stretch out and get a little more limb bending somewhere else.

[willie]

59 25" NTN, shooting a 560 gr arrow @172 fps

specs and pics pp. 125-6   TBB4

[Badger]

  Thanks Willie, I need to look that one up and refresh my memory.

[Stick Bender]

This thread has brought the no set tiller in pespective for me Im glad you posted what you did Steve Im going to use it on my current bow but Im starting out really wide & over built and going to use the no set method to side tiller to draw weight if Im understanding it right it should work ? My thinking is in the early stages no worries about excesive set being wide & can get to draw and weight with minimal set !