Acceptable amount of set

[Mo_coon-catcher]

When trying an experimental wood type, draw draw weight, dimension combo. What do you all consider as a successful amount of set?

In about done tillering out a persimmon bow. It's pulled 135# at 29" with a goal of 32". After samding I expect it to drop a few pounds. Its about 82" with the center wodth at 1 3/4" before the tapering starts. At the moment it's sitting at 1.5" set and I'm gonna call it a success of it holds less than 3". It took 1" set on its first full bracing and gained the other 0.5" after being pulled to 29" and I expect it to go to 32" without much more. I built a 60# Victorian ELB that did the same thing. It took a bit less than an inch of set upon bracing, and didn't take much more through it's tillering. I think that's just what persimmon does. For tillering it has a single side nock and a stringing groove on the back. I plan to install horn nocks after bringing tips down to about 3/8-1/2".

Anyone volunteer to test it for me when complete? I'll pay the shipping both ways. Though I don't know if I could afford to send it over seas. I'll try to get it fully tillered with pics on the tree by the end of the week.

Kyle

[WillS]

Don't take it to 32" would be my advice.  30" is plenty for a warbow, will keep the bow safer, the performance better and maximise your chances of having a finished bow. 

If it's not been heat treated yet, do that too as it will reduce set and increase weight and performance.  Good, slow deep heat treatment and then a final check at 30" is the way to go with heavy meanewood bows.  32" is for giants and laminated bows and people who don't research medieval arrow lengths 

[willie]

your set expectations seem reasonable to me, Not that I have tillered many warbows, but just thinking that desiring less set is more appropriate for bows that are designed to shoot "lighter", as in less GPP, arrows. Good question, and I hope you get a few more responses, as I have always wondered how much (set) is too much.   

[Del the cat]

With any bow, I think with the tips on the floor (belly side down), if you can get 1 finger under the grip that's good. 2 fingers is ok, 3 is getting a bit excessive.
However with a warbow, I think starting with slightly deflexed stave doesn't hurt anyhow.
Del

[Badger]

  I agree with Will about not taking a bow out any further in draw than you need to. An extra 2" can sometimes really affect the performance.

[Mo_coon-catcher]

A 30" draw works for me, I doubt I could get to 32" anyway, even at a much lower draw weight. I always thought that 32" draw had become the standard draw length. Right now it sitting at about 1.5 fingers under the handle. But I still need to work down the tips a bit. Right now I'm debating on putting on horn, or just clean up the wood and put a thread wrap under the side nock that's in the wood now.

Kyle

[WillS]

From what I understand, the 32" draw length became standard once the BL-BS "Standard arrow" was created as a specification.  It wasn't based on an actual medieval arrow, it just came about from various "medieval-ish" things they had to hand at the time.  As a result, bows were tillered to 32" in order to be safe when shooting the Standard arrow and have remained that way ever since. 

When you look at the MR arrows, the average length is about 30", and for pretty much every normal sized guy under compression from a really heavy bow 30" is more than enough.  It also means that you can make bows "proper" length - 72, 75 or even 77" as compared to the huge 80" or even 82" bows you used to see being made and sold.  A shorter bow weighs less obviously, and if you can find that optimal ratio between bow length and draw length and draw weight you're onto a winner.

I would add that if you're using modern strings like FastFlight etc, you'll want to be really careful with bare wood sidenocks.  Modern strings have a real tendency to bite into the wood and split it down the length of the limb, so either make the loops really nice and thick by laying in some extra strands, or whack some nice small neat horn nocks over the tips.  Horn sidenocks are cut through to the wood, but the horn around the rest of the tip stops the string biting down into it.  It's usually worth the 10 minutes it takes to fit a pair just to save the heartbreak when you brace it up one day and suddenly find that the string loop has buried itself somewhere down the bow limb!

[Mo_coon-catcher]

I went ahead and put in on some horn nocks. This was my first attempt at them. The grooves on the back are the stringing groove while the side nocks are for the string. I might have to try a bit shorter on my next one too. This one is 84" between the nocks. The next one will be a good bit shorter and probably drop the weight to 100# so it'll be easier to shoot. I still havnt tried to pull back this one yet.

So how do the horns look? I still have to polish then up.

Kyle

[WillS]

It looks like buffalo horn, in which case you might want to try making them with the grooves quite a lot higher up the horn.  Buffalo splits really easily, and you need loads of horn and a good contact between wooden bow tip and string loop to make them safe.  Sidenocks and buffalo horn don't really go together too well - it's cow horn you want, as it has a different grain structure than buffalo.

[WillS]

This is one of Dave Pim's beautiful little sidenocks - notice how high up the horn the actual nock is.  For cow horn this can be brought down a bit, but you certainly don't want to go any lower than this really, when using buffalo.



You also want to make absolutely sure that the string loops aren't too big.  They need to be almost too small to come down the bow limb, as if they're too big they'll just hang off the sidenocks weirdly, and cause so much downwards stress on the lip of the nock that it'll split as soon as it's braced.

The simple solution is to use running loops on the nocks (make a normal Flemish string, but make the loops at each end really tiny - no bigger than the diameter of a drinking straw, and pass the main string through the loops, so you form a slipknot type arrangement.)  This works superbly well on one nock, but you will find with modern string materials like FastFlight getting the loop off the other nock to unbrace a complete nightmare.  I usually combine a running loop on one end, and a normal (but small as possible) loop on the other, which I unbrace like normal.

[Mo_coon-catcher]

That running loop string is what I have for the bow. After I started cuttin them in I noticed there wasn't muchh meat there so I swapped over to that string type. I need to adjust the shape of my drill bit to get a bit more depth I to the horn. It's a 1/2" spade bit and I think o shaped it out a bit too blunt. So that in not much distance the wood starts to thin down pretty quick. I didn't know there was a difference I. Cow and buffalo horn for nocks. I always thought th cow looked better and that's why it was done.

Think the horn will hold up with a cinching loop on each side, or should I jus remove these tips and start over?
Then I need to finish up some arrows to try it out. I've got some 1/2" hickory tapered to 3/8" nocks. I still need to glue in the horn inserts, ice got some cow horn for that. And I'm waiting jn some ingredients I ordered for a verdigris glue that's on the englishwarbow society website. Then I'll fletch and make some bodkins.

Kyle

[Del the cat]

One thing to note is that on a well made nock the groove is a decent way up from where the limb meets the nock. If the groove is too low it can just split out, gotta remember horn has grain same as wood. I've had to repair a few poorly made nocks.
Del

[WillS]

That running loop string is what I have for the bow. After I started cuttin them in I noticed there wasn't muchh meat there so I swapped over to that string type. I need to adjust the shape of my drill bit to get a bit more depth I to the horn. It's a 1/2" spade bit and I think o shaped it out a bit too blunt. So that in not much distance the wood starts to thin down pretty quick. I didn't know there was a difference I. Cow and buffalo horn for nocks. I always thought th cow looked better and that's why it was done.

Think the horn will hold up with a cinching loop on each side, or should I jus remove these tips and start over?
Then I need to finish up some arrows to try it out. I've got some 1/2" hickory tapered to 3/8" nocks. I still need to glue in the horn inserts, ice got some cow horn for that. And I'm waiting jn some ingredients I ordered for a verdigris glue that's on the englishwarbow society website. Then I'll fletch and make some bodkins.

Kyle

Oh cool, that's my verdigris recipe on the EWBS site, glad it's being used!  Gimme a shout if you have any issues.

Personally I'd do the nocks again, as I've had so many split like that myself.  With cinching loops you will probably be fine, but then you've got to tackle the issue of unbracing one of them.  I still can't do it myself, which is why I use a cinching loop on the bottom, and a normal loop on the top.

[Mo_coon-catcher]

Awesome, I was wondering if that was you. Ill let you know what o think when I try it. I usually coat the bindings with clear nail polish, I feel like the compound will be Quicker and easier once I get the feel for it. I'll let you know what I think when I try it.

Think id be safe to go with buffalo horn, I can easily go to a local store and pick it up. Cow horn Id have to order. I ordered a pair from 3rivers. One was solid enough to use, the other was thib walled clear to the tip. I've been playing with the cinch loop, I made my steing so that it tapered immediately out of the loop. So to loosen Itll be sliding down the taper. It's still difficult though.

Kyle

[WillS]

Buff horn is safe, you just gotta be super careful how and where you cut the nock.  We're all still trying to find the best method to make these things work, so every bit of new info people can add the better.  If you find a working method for modern strings on a heavy bow by all means share the heck out of it.  Linen or hemp strings are very different and require a different approach of course.