Author Topic: Riser Separation and Replacement  (Read 6103 times)

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Offline LaBill67

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Riser Separation and Replacement
« on: June 20, 2017, 08:28:43 pm »
Ok fellas, here is the situation.  I have a r-d bow that has a IPE belly backed with pecan.  The riser is made up of IPE and pecan in that order.  What is happening is the riser is starting to separate just above the handle shelf.  Everything was glued up with Smooth On EA40 epoxy.  So before it completely separates I plan on going ahead and taking off the portion of the riser below the belly and after cleaning up the surface of the belly regluing new wood in place of the old that I just removed.  I'm not sure why this happened but I cant see any other way to save a well tillered and smooth shooting bow.  What say you all?

mikekeswick

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Re: Riser Separation and Replacement
« Reply #1 on: June 21, 2017, 01:56:11 am »
To stop this you need to use a thicker belly lam (and then taper into the working limb thickness as normal) so that the portion under the riser block does not flex. Or use a powerlam to start with, again to stop any flex in the center section.
The reason it came off is too much flex into the handle.
Unfortunately this can really only be fixed prior to glue up by selecting the correct thickness belly lam/powerlam.
you can try building up the riser with many thin pieces but it is likely it will happen again down the line.

Offline LaBill67

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Re: Riser Separation and Replacement
« Reply #2 on: June 21, 2017, 07:06:16 am »
Thanks Mike.

Offline Dances with squirrels

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Re: Riser Separation and Replacement
« Reply #3 on: June 21, 2017, 07:44:20 am »
How were the gluing surfaces prepared prior? I use Smooth On and prep them with a toothing plane blade the full depth of the teeth. They don't separate even if they're flexing. I leave no added thickness or 'pedestal' under the handle piece, and use no power lam.... additional, unnecessary work with a good bond.
Straight wood may make a better bow, but crooked wood makes a better bowyer

mikekeswick

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Re: Riser Separation and Replacement
« Reply #4 on: June 22, 2017, 02:16:57 am »
How were the gluing surfaces prepared prior? I use Smooth On and prep them with a toothing plane blade the full depth of the teeth. They don't separate even if they're flexing. I leave no added thickness or 'pedestal' under the handle piece, and use no power lam.... additional, unnecessary work with a good bond.

you've been lucky then. ;) It is a well known fact that a flexing handle will pop off any handle/riser no matter what glue used. Smooth on don't recommend preparing surfaces like that. Also a toothing plane will leave an ugly blend from riser to limb.

Offline LaBill67

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Re: Riser Separation and Replacement
« Reply #5 on: June 22, 2017, 07:21:51 am »
Hey Mike do you think reducing the weight of the bow from 65+ down to 45 will help keep the riser in place?  If so I may do that and just rebuild.

Offline PatM

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Re: Riser Separation and Replacement
« Reply #6 on: June 22, 2017, 07:27:11 am »
Poor Jeff, being lucky rather than good for over 20 years. lol

Offline PEARL DRUMS

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Re: Riser Separation and Replacement
« Reply #7 on: June 22, 2017, 07:58:23 am »
Post more of your ugly, lucky work Jeffro. People deserves to see it first hand. Ive seen enough to know that 95% of us will never be at that level.
Only when the last tree has died and the last river has been poisoned and the last fish has been caught will we realize we cannot eat money.

Offline Dances with squirrels

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Re: Riser Separation and Replacement
« Reply #8 on: June 22, 2017, 08:40:19 am »
Well Mike, that's not the only "well known fact" in bow making that I've found to be something else, so call it that if you wish, but calling it a fact doesn't make it one.

If we're going to have a fair conversation about this, a few things should be noted.

Toothing plane blades are made in a variety of teeth per inch. So yes, the most coarse ones would show their effects at the fadeouts of their joinery. They could be made perfectly smooth, but would be visible unless they were dyed or otherwise hidden. BUT, the irons with more teeth per inch leave glue lines that can be invisible if the pieces are well mated. I made the danged things so know right where they should be, and sometimes I can't find those glue joints myself. Same with horn tips, overlays, underlays, and such. Ugly blend? No. There are NO ugly blends on my bows and I wouldn't use them if that was the case.

By the way, someone mentioned draw weight... I've made bows like this with draw weights over 70 pounds... no pedastals, no powerlams, flexing well into the added handle pieces... glue lines still as tight, tidy, and hard to discern as the day I made em. Just sayin'.

Smooth On is made to flex and maintain the bond. It holds flexing limbs together just fine, right? In fact, I have used the toothing plane on countless, flexing full limb joints without a single failure. So it obviously isn't "the flexing" of an added handle piece that causes the joint to fail. Imo, most commonly, poorly designed or executed transitions from handle to working limbs are the cause... which is to say, halting the flex from the limb too abruptly. So it may be more accurate to say then that a non-flexing handle is the cause, not a flexing handle. Toss in another issue like a joint a bit starved of glue, or not enough working limb or limb taper, etc, and off she comes. The use of a toothing plane to prep the joints simply helps swing the odds back in our favor a bit by creating more gluing surface and making it practically impossible to starve the joint by clamping. Not a cure all, but a big help. If we add to that a good design and a smooth transition, the handle piece can flex and stay tight... and that's a fact.  :OK
Straight wood may make a better bow, but crooked wood makes a better bowyer

Offline Pat B

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Re: Riser Separation and Replacement
« Reply #9 on: June 22, 2017, 09:09:29 am »
How about a pic of the culprit.   I'm with Mike. There are ways to get a riser to flex a bit with a handle area that bends but generally in my experience if the center of the bow flexes the riser will pop off. If a bow is designed properly to begin with a handle riser popping off isn't an issue.
Make the most of all that comes and the least of all that goes!    Pat Brennan  Brevard, NC

Offline bubby

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Re: Riser Separation and Replacement
« Reply #10 on: June 23, 2017, 12:04:10 pm »
I dont use a toothing plane, but i use 36 grit to rough it up before useing smooth on. I do think the biggest problem with handles popping off has to do with the bend too close to the riser on a stiff handled bow. While the area to let go may be in the center of the handle i think that is more the cause of the limb acting as a lever and the riser as a block to add pressure, just like pulling tee posts
failure is an option, everyone fails, it's how you handle it that matters.
The few the proud the 27🏹

Offline Danzn Bar

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Re: Riser Separation and Replacement
« Reply #11 on: June 23, 2017, 01:11:19 pm »
I dont use a toothing plane, but i use 36 grit to rough it up before useing smooth on. I do think the biggest problem with handles popping off has to do with the bend too close to the riser on a stiff handled bow. While the area to let go may be in the center of the handle i think that is more the cause of the limb acting as a lever and the riser as a block to add pressure, just like pulling tee posts
Wow never though of it that way....that's what happen on my first couple of handle glue ups....
Bub.. sometimes you amaze me for an old beat up cowboy :) ;)
DBar
Integrity is doing the right thing when no one is looking

Offline Pat B

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Re: Riser Separation and Replacement
« Reply #12 on: June 23, 2017, 01:17:27 pm »
If using all lams a power lam between the back and belly at the handle will prevent the handle area from flexing, keeping the riser from popping off. If you are only using a back and belly leave enough thickness at the handle of the belly to keep the handle area from flexing.
Make the most of all that comes and the least of all that goes!    Pat Brennan  Brevard, NC

Offline DC

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Re: Riser Separation and Replacement
« Reply #13 on: June 23, 2017, 02:50:05 pm »
If using all lams a power lam between the back and belly at the handle will prevent the handle area from flexing, keeping the riser from popping off. If you are only using a back and belly leave enough thickness at the handle of the belly to keep the handle area from flexing.

What keeps the power lam from popping? Its length? After all it's just held on with glue too.

Offline Danzn Bar

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Re: Riser Separation and Replacement
« Reply #14 on: June 23, 2017, 03:16:03 pm »
Can a good glue joint be stronger than the wood itself???
DBar
Integrity is doing the right thing when no one is looking