Native Amreican bow designs, how do they shoot?

[PEARL DRUMS]

I know one thing is sure. If I had to make bows using the tools they had available I would make them super simple, super short and learn to shoot 6" short of my draw the same as they did.  Same with the arrows. Its much easier to find and make good shoot arrows 20-24" long as compared to 28-31" long.

[bradsmith2010]

Selfbowman,,  some of the eastern style bows were long,,like a flat longbow,, some very similar to your 68 ossage,,
Pearl,, thats a really good point,,
Loon, I am conservative I would go with the 53 inch,, but have a feeling the 50 inch bow would work if a little wider for the 26 inch draw,,
as far as the draw length on the 42 inch bow,, I am guessing it would hold up to 21 inch draw,
When I read about Ishi testing some bows,, he did over draw some quite a bit,,  I usually am hesitant to draw them more than half the bows length,, if I am getting good cast,, I dont see any need to over stress the bow,,
once you get the power stroke to 20 inches or so  a bow will start to shoot pretty good,, or have good enough cast to hunt with at a reasoanble draw weight,,

[bushboy]

I haven't read the whole thread,but shooting style comes to mind.try a anchor at your chest,thrust the bow arm forward and release!its fun and surprisingly accurate.maybe this is old hat,but somewhat new for myself.

[bradsmith2010]

Bushboy,, that is what I have been practicing lately,, it is fun,, I am surprised how accurute it can be,,I am only shooting at close range now,, but am going to try some long range stump shooting soon,,

[bradsmith2010]

Ok I have never posted this before,
this is a buffalo I shot with and osage self bow bout 20 years ago,
I did not know how to make a very effecient bow so just shot the heaviest bow I had at the time,,
it was about 70# at 25 inches, and I think very slow by todays standards
I used a 800 grain birch shaft,, with simmons two blade head,,
the bow had alot going against it,,
it was slow
it had side checks
it had a sapwood back,,
but,,,, it did shoot an arrow all the way through this buffalo at about 25 yards,,
I really thought it would bounce off,, but primitive bows are more powerful than most would think,, and very effective even on the largest game,,
the arrow literally looked like it was floating toward the buffalo,, and then just disappeared,, I can see it like it was yestereday,, anyway I thought it would be a nice addition to the thread,,

the hinge like appearance is really just a natural delflex in the wood,,

I still have this bow and plan to do some test with it and see if it has picked up any weight in the last 20 years,, and shoot it with a fast flight string to see what it will do,,

back then Tim Baker said in volume one,, that a 70# bow should shoot a 500 grain about 177 fps with 500 grain arrow,, or 210 yards,, I think this bow was not shooting that fast,, and we now that with fast flight ,, heat treating,, etc, bows in general shoot  harder,  bows in the 55# range shooting that hard,,

I guess my point is,, a bow shooting a 500 grain arrow in the 170's will kill a buffalo,, whatever weight you have to make the bow to achieve that cast,,

[bradsmith2010]

ok I shot the 48 inche sinew bow with a 333 grain arrow,, 176 fps,,,,47#@20 inch draw,,
its really pretty accurate out to 10 yards for me,, after that I need more practice,,

[PEARL DRUMS]

Cool picture, Brad.

[bradsmith2010]

thanks Pearl ,,,, its a nice memory,, and was a real confidence builder for my weapon of choice,, never had any doubts after that that a good wood bow could do,,,

[BowEd]

Big medicine in that bow Brad.Great picture.Still got his hide?
If you ever get a chance check into Dr.Ashbys findings on the tuffhead site about arrow penetration even with a lightweight bow.

[JackCrafty]

Interesting thread.

Lately I've been pushing the limits of my bow designs and breaking them (then I've got to get more wood and wait for it to dry.... )  This technique is necessary in the journey to making better bows. But the Native Americans had hundreds (or maybe thousands) of years to develop designs. It seems, however, they didn't capitalize on some very important design features that are necessary for the greatest efficiency and power. This is an important observation and seems puzzling to many people.

For example, some NA bows have thick tips, odd tillering, short draws, highly crowned backs, bark remaining on the back, carvings and embellishments on the tips and/or sides, heavy wraps of sinew or rawhide near the tips, tassels and other loose decorations, and various other characteristics that use up energy.  Why is that?

Simple answer: You didn't use the same bow for everything (hunting was only one use).  Unfortunately, not many examples of working bows survive, so we don't know the full range of uses and needs, but there are a few things we can look at to help us understand "how they shoot".

(1) The arrow shafts can tell us a lot.  Many NA arrows have shallow nocks that only work well with pinch-type grips. Pinch grips limit the draw weight (and arrow speed) for everyone except the very strong. Also, many NA arrow sets have spines and shaft weights that do not match (or vary greatly). This means that they were not shooting very close or very far but somewhere in the middle.  Some arrows are very long and some very short. Usually this means that the bows would be very long or very short but this was not always the case.  Here, we have to look deeper. Some arrow shaft materials were extremely light weight and the added length helped increase the arrow weight, for example.

(2) The careful study of stone arrowheads can reveal things.  A lot of true arrowheads have "needle" tips.  This type if tip helps increase penetration.  If the bows were extremely powerful this feature would be an unnecessary hardship. Needle tips are both difficult to make and easy to break.

(3) The old accounts of the first Europeans sometimes contain useful information.  Many accounts tell of Indians dressed in various disguises when hunting so they could get very close to the prey. If they had powerful, long range bows and very accurate arrows, why would they need to get extremely close?

(4) Current primitive cultures that still use the bow and arrow can provide clues. If you watch current makers and users of bows in cultures that use them for everyday hunting, you will see that there isn't much time spent getting things "perfect".  Usually, an archery set is made quickly (relatively) and to kill a specific type of animal. And almost always this killing is done at very close range.

Before this gets too long winded, I'll end it here.  Obviously there is a lot to think about (which makes it fun). In conclusion it is my opinion that NA bows were not all that powerful. I would say 40lb draws were the norm, even for the longest bows. Therefore, with the lack of the need for power, all sorts of designs will work.  Perhaps that is why we see such variety.

[willie]

Obviously there is a lot to think about (which makes it fun)

I agree, and thanks for some of your thoughts on the arrow aspect.

[Stick Bender]

Well I can speak from my own penetration test I was Chrono testing a Mohegan style 46 lb bow with b50 & a530 grain arrow when it cleared the Chrono at 153 fps  didn't seem very fast to me but the arrow skipped over the top of the arrow bag & blasted right threw my heavy double ply PVC fence & stuck in the ground in the back yard  I have no doubt it would shoot right threw a white tail but not as deadly as look I got from my wife 

[bradsmith2010]

ok Jack, but they did capitalize on important design features as the bows I just posted demonstrate,,( short draws can be effecient)
probably some of the bows you are refering too were for ceremony,, not hunting,,
not all Nataves shot a pinch grip,,
some bows were strong,,
I use a wide variety of spine length and weight, and I can shoot close ,,,, ,or far,,,I know how each arrow shoots as I am sure they did,,
even a powerful bow,,, needs a sharp tip to kill a buffalo,,and a strong bow,,  even our razor sharpe steel heads fail to penetrate from modern bows,,,
any one that hunts with a bow,,, knows that the animal can jump away from an arrow ,, even a very fast arrow,, so you need to get close,, to up your odds off success and not loose your arrow that took a weekk to make,, even when I shot a very heavy fast bow the deer at 10 yards can jump the arrow ,, thats why they needed to get close,,

bows in the museums show,, that some took time to get things right,, I am sure there was a wide range of talent as there is now,,
the bows Ishi made were very good examples ,, make a duplicate of one of his Sinew Yew bows,, and you will see the arrow fly,,

I think you diminish the basic design and its effeciency ,,, when you say all sorts of designs would work,,
if you have made many bows, you would know,, that is not correct,,

maybe the norm was 40ish,, but there are accounts of much more powerful bows,, documented in jim Hamms books, and others, and if you were going to shoot  with a sinew string,, the design would need to be effecient to bring down deer and elk and bear,,, also very powerful to shoot through a buffalo and kill the one on the other side,,, obvously well designed bows and arrows,,

thanks you so much for you input,, if was fun thinking about your views,, 

[bradsmith2010]

Laubin writes in his book about the Spanish being attacked and three horses shot through both shoulders,,,"these could not have been propelled by the sort of little childrens bows we so often see as being "real INdian", then he says his friend Chief White bull killed four bullalo with the arrow hitting the dirt on the other side,,and states,,,"Since there is no doubt that originally there were many Indian bows of considerable power, let us now take up some of them in more detail.  I couldnt find my Jim Hamn book but still looking 

[Selfbowman]

Nice Buffalo Brad. My first bows where not as efficient as my present bows either. The wilderbeast I shot was done with a 47# at my draw 26". Penetration into shoulder 14-16 inches. 145 gr ace I think. 565 gr arrow.15 yds.  The Nyala the arrow was sticking out both sides and both lungs where pumping plenty. 60 yd recovery. I prefer to shoot game at 6-10 yds if possible. Not to hard if you have the wind in your favor and not a herd of game in front of you. Arvin