a little advice from mbg...

[jamie]

if i was a beginner and came across this post my brain would explode jamie2 i  also always leave my handles wide. actually they just stay that way forever

[Badger]

       Something I would disagree with here is the the misconception that boo backed bows and things like that are somehow advanced skill level bows and that newbes should start with stave bows. Just the opposite, Backed board bows are far simpler even though they appear more sofisticated when finished. The general public or even inexperienced bow makers may not appreciate the difference but in my eyes the ultimate in bow making is just taking a stave of wood with all it's flaws and turning it into a viable hunting weapon.
       Something else I disagree with is that it is ok to have handshock in a selfbow, in my eyes it is not neccessary and not ok. handshock can permanently and painfully ruin your hand.
       Another item of controversy is performance. If you are making bows as weapons you should expect decent perormance from them, as you develop and increase your skills your performance levels will become more consistent.
       I think most importantly is to just to do whatever the hell tickles your fancy. This is a hobby!! We do it for fun!!. If you want pretty bows make them pretty, if you want fast bows, try to make them fast. If you are not having fun with this you will quit so have fun. Steve
   

[michbowguy]

you know fellas, there are just as many "ways" to make bows as there "are" number of bows in the world.

i did not mention alot about tillering, because of the guys that do it wayyyy more than me,would jump in.

but if you did read, i mentioned about research,homework etc.
lots of great info on the net.

but not alot of "other" methods as i use.

some of my methods are self taught, most were taught to me by some OLD MASTER CRAFTSMEN.

im just trying to help,and not to promote some new fandangled way to build a bow.this has been done and has been beat to death!
i will get more detailed later if you so wish, but believe me when i say to you that i am no mathmatician/or scientist,and heck id be lucky if i spelled those words right! lol

please take my advice with a grain of salt and at best you may learn a little from it.

i see alot of people asking " hows my tiller look?"
maybe not perfect,may be way out of wack.
 if many people chime in and describe tillering the way they do it, one of the ways may help the guy out, by just something someone else said,  it would just "click" with the bowyer.

if 5 people tried to teach me how to build a shed, id get 5 different routes.
but all routes ended up at the same destination...a fine built shed!

so think of me as one of the 5 builders......im the builder with probably the least amount of tools.i am the builder with out the fractional calculator to figure out the math. i am the builder who will not overcharge you for the "little extra" i put in my work.
i am the builder who was taught by many,and used there techniques to come up with a way to build the type of shed that I want to build.

i dont know about horn bows, but i think they are cool as all get out!
'' ''      ''        ''     glass bows but own a few.
"  "      "         "    flight bows but have no real burn to make any, but will always listen to those who do as every bowyer has "tips".

i love primitive things.primitive archery.my skin is thick.if i can help i will.if i get laughed out of a forum ,i will leave laughing with them!

i will post more insite, hopefully with some pics.

mbg.

[George Tsoukalas]

For the record (or dvd, LOL) I have a fundamental disagreement with some. We agree about never pulling a stave further than it takes to expose a flaw. I disagree regarding working the stave at partial draws once you've removed wood. I always do and think it is supremely important. So important that it is in the top 5 important things that I pass on to people I teach. That is perhaps why my bows almost never loose more that 3 # of weight over a year of heavy use. They are already broken in. I just wanted to be clear on that point. I'd rather break a bow in like that gradually over the course of building it than witness a sudden drop in weight. Jawge

[DCM]

I don't want to leave the impression the bow should not be bend at all by saying "Only bend the limbs in order to check the bending, or the tiller,"  Yes, bend it as much as you need to evaluate the tiller.  In fact I don't go by how a bow looks when bent, but rather while bending if you get the distinction when I'm adjusting a flat spot on a bow.  I'd estimate it can take from 10 to 100 pulls to completely adjust a flat spot on a limb, more if it is really full of character. Yes, you have to work in adjustments, just to assess each adjustment.  Also, I do stage the tillering like everybody else, pulling to increased draw in 1" incriments, how ever many times I need until I don't see any flaws and checking on set bettween each stage.  I'd call this work bending to check the tiller.  You are looking at the tiler after all, to determine if it is concentrated where you intend as the lenght progresses.  I just don't pull the bow arbitrarily, for some number of predetermined times, with no other purpose than to set the wood.  Maybe my style is to pull the bow so much while evaluating the tiller I don't need the extra exercising.  By the time I'm satisfied, the wood is already set.

In terms of assessing tiller, my primary concern has become what the set profile looks like, how much deformed from it's initial shape is the bow, and shooting manners of course.  That says a lot more about how the bow is tillered than what it looks like at full draw, particularly while on a tillering tree.

[michbowguy]

hi jawge,
 i would necer questions your ways my friend.
in my original post i did not mention the way i "exercise" the limbs.
not on a tre, but before longstring, during first wood removal,to get to the tillering stage WITHOUT taking too much off.

my intended thread was not posted for argunents and my way is better than your way,but i wanted to share MY way.

it seems as if i should post a build along, sometimes i hate doing this as it realy frazzles people out who are he!! bent on certain ways.
hahaha.

 i must add tho... if primitive man made an inferior weapon with mere rocks...we would not be where we are today, and i have yet to find mass calculators and tillering trees painted on the cave walls!

these are great NEW ways of making bows.
maybe not the easiest for the beginner,but they sure did help!

i hardley know how to use a calculator and my tiller tree sure looks cool but has been collecting dust for some time.
when cameras came along, we took pics so others could spot tiller flaws.

i am not against NEW methods.
but im trying to tell people that you still can make good bows with LESS.
damn. i was born in the wrong century!!!
mbg

[michbowguy]

you see.
lots of people,lots of ways.
i love it!

the more people who chime in we will learn more.

keep it comming.
jamie

[The Burnt Hill Archer]

Quote: i was born in the wrong century!!!


I have thought this many times man!!! good discussion here, and alot to sort through. i myself am a bit cautious. after any wood removal i excersise the limbs at least 50 times. be it final sanding or first bending floor tiller, keeping an eye on how they bend each time. it became blindingly clear (i know its an oxy moron) when i first started making bows that i had no idea what i was doing. i did alot of research, and took different methods from different people. i used things that made sence to me, and left things alone that just boggled me. after the first 8 bows or so (quite a fiew of thoes were failures), things started to click. the stuff that confused me started to become clearer, and i adjusted my methods accordingly.

     my point is the same that was said before, many different styles of bows, many different styles of bowyers. use what works for you, and keep an open mind to other options.

Phil

[Jesse]

Well I am a fairly new bowyer and I have to say that most of my knowledge comes from others and not from actual experience. That being said I have avoided a lot of mistakes by studying what you successful  bowyers do. I would agree with Badger that if you want a bamboo backed reflex deflex bow it might not come out right on your first try but if thats what you want I say do your homework and copy someones successful design and techniques and go for it. once you make a few you can experiment with your own design alterations. To me a backed board bow is way easier than a stave bow to start with but if thats not what you want then I say get a nice stave and do your homework.   I  have been soaking up info for a while on this site and you guys have made this a lot easier. Thanks  Jesse

[Pat B]

It doesn't take many tools(steel or stone) or much effort and time to make a bow that will propel an arrow with enough force to dispatch a deer size game animal. For that matter you could go out and cut a green sapling, add a string and hold it asymmetrically and it will do the task. From that point, the sky is the limit...fancy tip overlays, skin and other backings, center shot handles, R/D profile and the list goes on. All of these details are up to the bowyer...but none of it is necessary to propel that deadly arrow.
   I think I build a pretty nice looking bow but that part of of the process is decided only after I build a bow with the tiller that suits me. Generally, and like Jamie2 said, the staves tells me what bow I will build. I try to go with the flow of the wood instead of trying to fight it. I do use artificial methods sometimes to alter some aspects of the staves characteristics but not in all cases. I have made some successful bows with iffy staves using just simple tools and good tillering methods and my ultimate bow building goal is going in that direction...backwards I guess.   I don't want to see how fancy I can make a bow but how simply I can make a bow. This has helped me learn more about bow building than all the "pretty" I have ever put in a bow.
   I believe that primitive man used what he could obtain to make the most practical and effective weapon he could. His life depended on that weapon so its effectiveness and durability were his main concern. In some cases he even added some artistic features. They may have improved his weapon through spiritual aspects but had nothing physical to do with the bows performance

ps. Steve(Badger) It does take more tools and supplies to make a R/D, boo backed bow and for me it is more difficult than a simple stave bow. My point is, being able to see proper tiller and being able to achieve it is more important in wood bow building. All the rest can be included in ones bow building kit bag but without a properly tillered bow its only fluff.   Pat

[Justin Snyder]

For the record (or dvd, LOL) I have a fundamental disagreement with some. We agree about never pulling a stave further than it takes to expose a flaw. I disagree regarding working the stave at partial draws once you've removed wood. I always do and think it is supremely important. So important that it is in the top 5 important things that I pass on to people I teach. That is perhaps why my bows almost never loose more that 3 # of weight over a year of heavy use. They are already broken in. I just wanted to be clear on that point. I'd rather break a bow in like that gradually over the course of building it than witness a sudden drop in weight. Jawge

I love it George, I expect mine to loose less than 3 pounds after shooting 1000 times.

Pat, for me it is easier to make a backed board bow.  I find boo backed osage to be so amazingly forgiving in tiller.  Not necessarily a R/D. That is a whole other can of worms, as would be building a R/D selfbow.  Justin

[michbowguy]

do any of you who do not cut there own staves, or even those wo do.....

know which side of the tree trunk was under some sort of tension whilst it was alive?
if not do you know how to tell?
do you know which way the bow MAY twist even if you corrected the initial profile for layout?
do you know if the knot you are working around : can you tell or know if it was very fruitfull in the life years of the tree and know whether or not it is overstressed and will fail because of the weight it had to hlod up when it was alive and well?
can you understand what the wood is telling you,and when to stop removing wood,or how long of a bow that your stave will produce?
why sappling bows are BETER than most seasoned staves??

  i do.    

[michbowguy]

i realy think i might have opend up a big can o worms but i do believe this.

learn more about the wood and woods you took your stave from.
look at the enviorment.
is it usualy wet.
is it usualy dry.
was the tree close to an open field where some branches grow longer to reach sunlight to thrive, but in excess overstress the limb pockets and ot knots.
what trees thrive in the patch of woods you took it from.

alot of these questions are unknowns, to most who buy there staves, and for those who keep eyes open for "just bowwood" are sometimes blind to the obvious enviroment.

and i will tell you, that using mass calculators, and tillering trees and proven standard techniques....this is where the modern type bowbuilding skills push us through to a nice working bow.

i just want to open some eyes to some of the old ways.
even tho i am young, i have had great teachers.

[Jesse]

I dont want to misquote Badger I dont think he said anything about reflex deflex . Thats not what I meant  I dont think r/d is easier to tiller its a lot harder
 

[michbowguy]

my main intent is to relate more of woodlore ,and bieng a part of the natural enviroment from wich you took the said piece of wood.

a little more on myself for all of you that are still shaking your heads! lol

I...
i have not started fire with a hand drill.
i have not made clay pottery.
i do not live in a teepee.
i do not hunt in buck skins.
i have not made thousands of bows.
i still do not understand women!

i do know the woods i travel.
i have learned wild ways and how to track , and not BE tracked.
i know what knives keep and hold a keen edge.
i do know how to stay alive.
i have closed my mouth and open my eyes to my elders.
i have learned much around many campfires/and tables.

i have no more money than the local convienience store clerk just getting by.
what i want to do is help others understand the way i do things.
and that is simple things, and how to make simple bows.

i will not say that math and science are the "devil" lol.
i will say,you dont always "need" them.

hope you enjoyed my little STAND of sorts.
hahaha.
now to hunker back down and keep lurking around.
mbg!