Self bows with horn bow stats

[jaxenro]

Why don't you try making the identical bow in horn and self wood yourself that way you can keep as. any of the other variables the same as you can and then compare the results?

Although a true test would also require making a horn bow to self bow specs to compare? Like a horn ELB design? It seems like the differing designs are to bring forth the potential of the differing materials

[sleek]

Horn takes way too much work to do that with. But i have seen a few large ones built.

[jaxenro]

Maybe partner with a horn bow builder then? You each make two to identical specs, one design favoring wood the other horn?

[BowEd]

sleek...I'd hate to be accused of trying to stop you from doing what you wanna do and the way you wanna do it.
You really don't need a horn bow maker to get this done.There is plenty of info out there a person can get.Comparing curves,designs, and statistics etc. if accurately done.You seem to know what that's all about already or should have a good idea about it to go on an adventure like this.Then it's just a matter of making the bows like you said.

[jaxenro]

Sorry if I spoke out of turn I wasn't trying to say he shouldn't do it his way. Just thought it might be interesting to see tha same design made with different materials

[sleek]

Sorry if I spoke out of turn I wasn't trying to say he shouldn't do it his way. Just thought it might be interesting to see tha same design made with different materials

Your point was valid. No worries on what you or anyone has said. I just need to do what I can to make me happy and satisfied with my results, and be sure to be honeat about what they really represent.  Problem is, I could never do a complete scientific test with hard fast results. So I will get close as I can within my level of interest, and make bows.

Honestly, my main goal is to make short horse bow size, weight, and draw length bows and get the best out of them I can. I am using horn bows as my measuring stick. Pun not intended but still humorous.

[jaxenro]

Understood I just didn't want to come across as arrogant.

If I understand correctly even two identical self bows from the same wood made to the same dimensions can still shoot differently but your test sounds interesting.

[PatM]

I still think the two can come way closer in performance regardless of pre-strung profile. The hand held wood bow record still stands at way over 500 yards. Same with the sinew backed wood bow.

  You can look at the results from the last Wendover shoots to see how the horn bow guys are faring so far.

  Part of the problem right now is that neither the wood nor horn guys are bringing their best game  relative to the old ways.

[sleek]

You are probably right pat. I should like to prove you right though. And a world record would be fun to chase...

[Marc St Louis]

Many years ago I posted a recurve I had made on ATARN along with the performance I was getting.  Adam contacted me about it asking for more info, I think he was surprised at how fast it was, for a wood bow.

[sleek]

You have my attention:)

[Marc St Louis]

Unfortunately it was too long ago and I don't remember much about it.  I know it was a deflex static recurve but I don't remember if it was sinew backed or hard backed, I don't have the bow anymore

[Badger]

I was just reading Tim Bakers "Bow design" chapter(around page 50) last night and I think he claims that the side profile of the "used and unbraced" bow will determine the energy storage. Doesn't matter whether it's all wood or sinew or horn, as long as the unbraced shape and draw weight are the same and the bow actually survives the bend, the energy storage will be the same. Are we disputing that?

  This is not true, pretty good indicator but a bow with plenty of reflex can have crappy performance. I built two bows a couple of years ago with about 12" of reflex and big recurves. It maintained most of its profile but the wood was basically crushed after a dozen or so shots and I had a mediocre performer, Thats why I now measure the draw weight at different points, sometimes a bow wont take much set but will loose weight.

[loon]

I was just reading Tim Bakers "Bow design" chapter(around page 50) last night and I think he claims that the side profile of the "used and unbraced" bow will determine the energy storage. Doesn't matter whether it's all wood or sinew or horn, as long as the unbraced shape and draw weight are the same and the bow actually survives the bend, the energy storage will be the same. Are we disputing that?

  This is not true, pretty good indicator but a bow with plenty of reflex can have crappy performance. I built two bows a couple of years ago with about 12" of reflex and big recurves. It maintained most of its profile but the wood was basically crushed after a dozen or so shots and I had a mediocre performer, Thats why I now measure the draw weight at different points, sometimes a bow wont take much set but will loose weight.

Hence the *used* and unbraced reflex would be low? ie reflex right after shooting, then unstringing
Another thing that affects the energy storage is the tiller? How close to the handle the limbs bend? And I guess also where the reflex is, closer to handle or outer limbs. Of course you can also have a bow that stores a ton of energy that shoots horrible because it's very inefficient. Manchu bows are only great at very heavy arrows - long horn bows

[gfugal]

The reason Horn Bows are so good is because of their shape and design that allows for earlier energy built up in the beginning of the draw. Theoretically if you built a self bow with the same design and it holds up it would perform similarly. However, there are two problems. 1) Self-bows usually can't take that much energy without breaking or getting set. I am finishing up on a another short wood bow with only paper backing. Its 43" knock to knock and draws 45#@27". That being said it has a horrible energy storage curve because the wood just can't handle the design. It got a lot of set and string follow. If a wood bow was to compare to a horn bow it would have to be able to retain the large reflex without taking set. Now this could be because I'm using less than Ideal wood and errors in my tillering, but it still illustrates the problem. 2) the other issue is even if you were able to get the same force curve as a horn that doesn't mean it will spit out an arrow at the same speed. Some material is less efficient at transferring potential energy into kinetic energy. The only way to know is to get the efficiency ratio by taking the kinetic energy determined by the velocity and arrow mass and divide it by the stored up potential energy determined by the force curve.