Author Topic: branch wood issues?  (Read 5728 times)

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Offline stuckinthemud

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Re: branch wood issues?
« Reply #15 on: November 23, 2015, 09:54:12 am »
What about yew? It's so different to all the other woods and I have access to some nice branches that are screaming to be thinned-out.

Offline Del the cat

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Re: branch wood issues?
« Reply #16 on: November 23, 2015, 12:45:32 pm »
What about yew? It's so different to all the other woods and I have access to some nice branches that are screaming to be thinned-out.
My comments were based on my experience with Yew.
Even the underside of "Landscape Yew" branches, once heat treated produced a decent bow.
Del
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Offline DC

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Re: branch wood issues?
« Reply #17 on: November 23, 2015, 01:04:33 pm »
The landscape yews here are all what I would call multi trunk, a lot of branches but they're all vertical. Would they be considered branches or trunks?

Offline wizardgoat

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Re: branch wood issues?
« Reply #18 on: November 23, 2015, 01:22:27 pm »
In yew I haven't seen any difference with the top or bottom sides. I find that usually the tension side is the cleanest.  I recently made a compression wood yew branch bow, just because the tension side had some rot to dig out

Offline Springbuck

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Re: branch wood issues?
« Reply #19 on: November 23, 2015, 01:48:03 pm »
Little experience with yew, but i have heard others talk about older, large trees, with long lower branches sweeping out from under the shade of the branches above them.  Those branches often yield long, twist-free staves from their upper sides.  This is true of juniper, for sure.

Wizardgoat just mentioned that tension wood is often cleaner, and the thing about those branches spreading is my theory why.  The top of the branch is shaded by the foliage above it and has been growing longer and longer like that, so fewer knots and cleaner wood.

Offline Del the cat

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Re: branch wood issues?
« Reply #20 on: November 23, 2015, 04:20:32 pm »
The landscape yews here are all what I would call multi trunk, a lot of branches but they're all vertical. Would they be considered branches or trunks?
They are considered bow wood :laugh:
Trunks, I'd call 'em... but I wouldn't wear 'em to go swimming.... (dunno if that translates across the pond?)
Del
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Offline Jim Davis

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Re: branch wood issues?
« Reply #21 on: November 23, 2015, 11:29:37 pm »
I've just about quit replying on threads like this, but there is a lot of anecdotal material presented above that just doesn't agree with extensive testing by the Forest Products Laboratories and others.

First, all wood is 2.5 to 4 times stronger in tension than in compression. You will save lots of otherwise wasted time and energy if that principle is recognized.

Second, all varieties of wood produce compression wood on the earth side of branches. It's just that softwood's difference in growth between sky and earth sides is more pronounced.

Someone posted about making a compression side bow or a tension side bow. There will be differences in the degree of compression or tension conditions as they are considered point by point through the thickness of the bow. If the top of the limb is the back of the bow (as it should be), the back will be using tension wood and the belly will be using "less tensioned" wood if the belly wood is between the original center of the branch and the original top of the branch.

if the earth side of the limb is used for the back of the bow, the belly side will be "less compressed" wood than the back. This is the worst condition because the back is weak in tension and the belly is fairly weak in compression.

In all the pre-1960 writings about wooden bows, any reference to compression wood in trunks or limbs advised to never make a bow from compression wood.

Or we can all set to and reinvent the wheel again, and again, and again....
Jim Davis

Kentucky--formerly Maine

Offline Del the cat

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Re: branch wood issues?
« Reply #22 on: November 24, 2015, 03:22:50 am »
Yeah, we hear you, and thanks for the technical info.
But if the only clean wood I can get is the underside of a long straight Yew branch... you can guess what I'm going to use.
If I waited for the perfect Yew stave, I'd have never made a bow.
Del
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Offline sumpitan

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Re: branch wood issues?
« Reply #23 on: November 24, 2015, 07:32:59 am »

Tuukka,
 
when using hardwood reaction wood for a self bow, do you prefer using the top tension wood
or the bottom opposite wood?

or do you make composite bows with the tension wood?

thank you

willie

Willie,

Typically, the top half of the split trunk will gain in reflex while seasoning (thanks to the tension wood in it), while the bottom half stays straight or even gains follow while seasoning, which isn't all that surprising. This is different from simply drying a stave clamped to a reflex etc, as the tension wood fibers actually actively keep the bow from gaining set at a normal rate. Most of my favorite bows come from the tension side, having lower set and higher cast, but I've made good bows out of the lower halves, as well. Plenty other qualities in the mix, as we all know.

Pictured is an average case from this fall; a pencil-straight, leaning saskatoon trunk was cut, split through the middle according to the upper-lower division, and set aside to season. After two weeks of drying, the top half sports a 32 mm reflex, while the bottom half is still straight. (Plenty of twist there, too, but building D-bows with straight tips, it's a non-issue). This particular trunk had the cleanest and the flattest side on the side, not on the top, but I knew better. Splitting that way would've resulted in massive alignment issues.

Tuukka






Offline sumpitan

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Re: branch wood issues?
« Reply #24 on: November 24, 2015, 08:00:23 am »
I've just about quit replying on threads like this, but there is a lot of anecdotal material presented above that just doesn't agree with extensive testing by the Forest Products Laboratories and others.

What I've been relaying here is not based on anecdotes but on wood science of the past 30 years or so. Sources like Timell (1986): Compression Wood in Gymnosperms; Hakkila (1989): Utilization of Residual Forest Biomass; and the latest: Barnett et al 2014: The Biology of Reaction Wood.

First, all wood is 2.5 to 4 times stronger in tension than in compression.


No. Applies only to normal-grown wood. Very low tension strength is a major characteristic of compression wood. Many softwoods are "only" about twice as strong in tension compared to compression. Compression wood's tension strength is as much as 50 % lower than normal-grown wood, so around 1: 1.

Second, all varieties of wood produce compression wood on the earth side of branches. It's just that softwood's difference in growth between sky and earth sides is more pronounced.


Arguably true, strictly-speaking, but quite misleading. Compression wood in hardwoods and tension wood in softwoods is a fringe-level, suggested phenomena, compared to the well-established fundamental difference in how hardwoods and softwoods deal with gravity. 

Barnett et al 2014: p. 2: [What is reaction wood?] "It is divided into two types: tension wood in dicotyledons, and compression wood in conifers."

Or take the classic, Hoadley's Understanding Wood, pp. 30 -32: "In softwood species, reaction wood forms principally toward the underside of the leaning stem" [...] "In hardwood trees, reaction wood forms predominantly toward the upper side of the leaning stem."

Anyone who's cut into reaction wood in softwood trunks and reaction wood in hardwood trunks can tell this much, it is quite graphic under the eye as well as under the blade. Philosophical relativities have little real-world weight.

In all the pre-1960 writings about wooden bows, any reference to compression wood in trunks or limbs advised to never make a bow from compression wood.

For the past 1 000 years, from the Pacific all the way to the Atlantic, over the vast Boreal zone of Northern Eurasia, the predominant and highly sought-after bow material was none other than compression wood (pine or larch). Compression wood has superb characteristics, once it's lousy tension strength is dealt with, as I wrote earlier. A backed compression wood bow is the only natural-material or other bow in the world that gains in reflex and cast when relative humidity rises, a pretty huge deal when living in the wet Northern woods, bow in hand.

Tuukka

Offline stuckinthemud

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Re: branch wood issues?
« Reply #25 on: November 24, 2015, 10:49:22 am »
Thanks guys, so to sum up, branch wood is composed of compression wood, the level of compression increasing from earth side to sky side; all branch wood is usable but sky facing is best, but do not use left or right facing timber  ;D?

Offline willie

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Re: branch wood issues?
« Reply #26 on: November 24, 2015, 11:38:05 pm »
Stickinthemud-

 I hope that you do not mind me posting a pic in your thread. This is some compression wood from a spruce trunk. How usable it is I have yet to find out. I have laminated some to a birch back, and it indeed gains in moves with MC changes. A wet rag on the belly of a 48" bow, moves it 3" overnight. I did not start with it as dry as possible, so my bow is straight when damp and has 3" deflex a day later, and I have not started to tiller it yet. Still  trying to figure out what moisture content the compression wood needs to be when I make the glue-up.




the white is normal for spruce, and the orange is compression wood
end of stave is wetted to enchance color

Offline stuckinthemud

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Re: branch wood issues?
« Reply #27 on: November 25, 2015, 04:06:58 am »
Thanks Willie, I had no idea the cross-section could look like that, makes things a lot clearer :)

Offline scp

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Re: branch wood issues?
« Reply #28 on: November 25, 2015, 10:15:10 am »
I wonder whether anyone here made a backward bow out of compression wood.

Offline bowandarrow473

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Re: branch wood issues?
« Reply #29 on: November 25, 2015, 11:07:08 am »
That's a good idea scp. Might have to try that with some branches I have.
Whatever you are, be a good one.