Author Topic: ABO techniques, processes and tools.  (Read 102324 times)

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Offline caveman2533

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  • Steve Nissly
Re: ABO techniques, processes and tools.
« Reply #180 on: October 19, 2015, 08:39:58 pm »
Round and round we go......

Offline nclonghunter

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Re: ABO techniques, processes and tools.
« Reply #181 on: October 19, 2015, 09:13:55 pm »
LOL....Steve, I agree. There is a clear difference of opinions on the overshot flake.

 I will say I can not yet do it when I want to, but I have done it many times. I do not consider it a mistake when it happens but feel like I did something right to get a flake that travels across the face and thins the point. I wish I could do it when I wanted to but I do not knap for a living and did not grow up around knapping. People that "lived by stone tools" had to have a knowledge or skill set that far surpasses most of us.

I'm going to make some popcorn now...... 8)
There are no bad knappers, only bad flakes

Offline Hummingbird Point

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Re: ABO techniques, processes and tools.
« Reply #182 on: October 19, 2015, 09:31:57 pm »
[

If I can get someone to hold a camera for me, and the rain clears up, I will try to post a technique that no one has seen.
[/quote]


I would deeply appreciate that and look forward to whatever information you can provide.

Thanks,

Keith

Offline Zuma

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Re: ABO techniques, processes and tools.
« Reply #183 on: October 19, 2015, 09:48:19 pm »
Well the only evidence posted so far is that overshot IS a mistake. 8)
No one posted even one Clovis point from a stratified site that
showed overshot flaking.  :embarrassed:
No one posted flake counts from any stratified Clovis sites that
contained a large enough number of overshot flakes to even give
 a hint that they were produced intentionally.  :-[
So there you have it.  >:D
Zuma

If you are a good detective the past is at your feet. The future belongs to Faith.

Offline turbo

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Re: ABO techniques, processes and tools.
« Reply #184 on: October 19, 2015, 11:26:17 pm »
Man, this thread has exploded. I see we're back on the overshot topic again ;)

Let me reiterate (some of) what I've said in the past; there are different types of overshots. The one's I would call a 'mistake' would be the plunging/taking a big bite off the opposite edge (key word being big). The coast to coast flakes are desirable as they feather out just to the opposite edge. (I think I have the terminology correct from the huge PP thread on this topic. I've been meaning to revisit that thread). Then there are blending flakes from the opposite edge toward the center, and if blended well look like overshots.

I think even Zuma would agree that a lot of Clovis bifaces, etc. exhibit long/bold percussion (whether indirect or not) scars. Some other/more recent cultures did too but not in the same way. Yes, I did work in a lithics lab during college and no, that does not make me an expert.

"That being said, if we are discussing hammerstone tech, I believe that most all overshots are accidental.  If we are discussing billet tech, I think that overshots is difficult to achieve - AS NOTED BY BRADLEY.  If we are discussing tine-based "pitching tool" tech, I think that regular flaking, coast to coast flaking, and overshot, is all fairly easy to achieve."

I have to agree w/ most of this. I've been studying bison horn/indirect for a few months and have been getting fairly consistent coast to coast flakes. I'm finding, as Marty told me, the correct inward and support, not to mention platform prep, will achieve longer flakes.

AncientTech

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Re: ABO techniques, processes and tools.
« Reply #185 on: October 20, 2015, 12:22:54 am »
Man, this thread has exploded. I see we're back on the overshot topic again ;)

Let me reiterate (some of) what I've said in the past; there are different types of overshots. The one's I would call a 'mistake' would be the plunging/taking a big bite off the opposite edge (key word being big). The coast to coast flakes are desirable as they feather out just to the opposite edge. (I think I have the terminology correct from the huge PP thread on this topic. I've been meaning to revisit that thread). Then there are blending flakes from the opposite edge toward the center, and if blended well look like overshots.

I think even Zuma would agree that a lot of Clovis bifaces, etc. exhibit long/bold percussion (whether indirect or not) scars. Some other/more recent cultures did too but not in the same way. Yes, I did work in a lithics lab during college and no, that does not make me an expert.

"That being said, if we are discussing hammerstone tech, I believe that most all overshots are accidental.  If we are discussing billet tech, I think that overshots is difficult to achieve - AS NOTED BY BRADLEY.  If we are discussing tine-based "pitching tool" tech, I think that regular flaking, coast to coast flaking, and overshot, is all fairly easy to achieve."

I have to agree w/ most of this. I've been studying bison horn/indirect for a few months and have been getting fairly consistent coast to coast flakes. I'm finding, as Marty told me, the correct inward and support, not to mention platform prep, will achieve longer flakes.

Turbo,

Between regular flaking, coast to coast flaking, and overshot flaking, I realized that there are actually two types of flaking, that result in opposite edge removals.

One kind of flaking happens when the break exits the opposite edge, and removes the upper portion of the stone.  This flake probably qualifies as overshot, at least to most people.  I happen to think of it as a really low coast to coast flake, that looks like an overshot.

On the other hand, there is another kind of overshot flake that involves a ninety degree turn in the break, prior to reaching the opposite edge.  This type of break lops off the far edge. 

In my case, in January of 2015, I had an epiphany as to what caused the break to turn ninety degrees, prior to reaching the opposite edge.  In my opinion, this is what a true overshot is.

I asked one of the posters why he thought that some breaks run flat, while others curve over the face of the stone.  I am not sure that he noticed my question.  But, I could take it one step farther.  Why would a break run straight, but then curve at the last minute, while creating an overshot with a right angle turn?  The second question is harder to answer than the first.  Sometime, when my work is unbanned, and other people are allowed to see it, and discuss it, I might share more. 

Anyway, here is an example of a straight run, followed by a hard right turn, prior to reaching the other side:



Here is the entire flake, by itself:



Now, if a person follows a really old description of the effects of pressure, and the pressure flaking process - in terms of force - what can be seen is that my work does not actually conform to the description, though my work is not actually entirely the result of pressure.  So, why did the break turn at the end of its trajectory?  Why did it turn, and cut off the opposite edge?  Why didn't it run straight like a coast to coast flake?  Does my deer tine contain some special magic?  No.  So, what is the answer?   

By the way, I believe that Marty mentioned years ago that the initiations from his notched punch flakers are not quite like the initiations seen on ancient material.  I believe he saw some difference.  Well, my tine punch initiations probably do not look quite like his notched basal punch initiations.  There are really two different types of flakers.  And, that just leaves one question...   

 
« Last Edit: October 20, 2015, 12:38:50 am by AncientTech »

Offline caveman2533

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  • Steve Nissly
Re: ABO techniques, processes and tools.
« Reply #186 on: October 20, 2015, 12:28:35 am »
Support against the back edge of the biface

AncientTech

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Re: ABO techniques, processes and tools.
« Reply #187 on: October 20, 2015, 12:51:32 am »
Support against the back edge of the biface

Opposite edge support, plus manual torque, works great in hammerstone direct percussion, to achieve overshot. 

Not so with opposite edge support, in more sophisticated forms of flaking.  If one cannot torque the stone against the blow, during an indirect percussion blow, then achieving the ninety degree turn in the break must be made in some other manner than manual torque.  Otherwise, mere back edge support would only lead to a straight break, which is more consistent with coast to coast flaking, and not true overshot flaking.

The fact that a person can demonstrate drastic overshot flaking, and everything less, with a simple deer tine, is pretty telling.  But, it does not mean that every variable is necessarily exactly the same, in the lesser flaking, even if the process is essentially the same.

 

Offline Zuma

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Re: ABO techniques, processes and tools.
« Reply #188 on: October 20, 2015, 08:18:25 am »
Ben,
Since you claim to have such miraculous control.
When will you post a video that shows you making
10 overshot flakes in a row.
I'll buy the popcorn for everyone.
BTW How many is it you claim you can do in a row off camera?
Zuma :o
If you are a good detective the past is at your feet. The future belongs to Faith.

Offline knap_123

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Re: ABO techniques, processes and tools.
« Reply #189 on: October 20, 2015, 08:49:57 am »
Im rebuilding my abo kit since I got rid of everything a few years ago. No copper just stone and bone.

Offline nclonghunter

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Re: ABO techniques, processes and tools.
« Reply #190 on: October 20, 2015, 08:51:40 am »
I would like to see pictures of the antler tine used for the overshot flaking.......
There are no bad knappers, only bad flakes

Offline iowabow

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Re: ABO techniques, processes and tools.
« Reply #191 on: October 20, 2015, 08:59:12 am »
I would like to see pictures of the antler tine used for the overshot flaking.......
When making small points the ishi stick with antler bit creates overshot almost everytime. This is power that has to be controled. I control by lightly knapping a bevel on other side.
(:::.) The ABO path is a new frontier to the past!

Offline Ghost Knapper

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Re: ABO techniques, processes and tools.
« Reply #192 on: October 20, 2015, 09:00:29 am »
Zuma if AncientTech posts any video showing even 1 overshot flake or attempt at it using the technique he is so passionate about I would be impressed.

Offline iowabow

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Re: ABO techniques, processes and tools.
« Reply #193 on: October 20, 2015, 09:02:06 am »
This morning's technique is how to unsquare an edge. The photos should explain.
(:::.) The ABO path is a new frontier to the past!

Offline iowabow

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Re: ABO techniques, processes and tools.
« Reply #194 on: October 20, 2015, 09:04:07 am »
Preform
(:::.) The ABO path is a new frontier to the past!