Author Topic: data crunching: bow wood qualities  (Read 17170 times)

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Offline joachimM

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data crunching: bow wood qualities
« on: February 05, 2015, 05:58:34 pm »
Hi folks,
Sorry for the lengthy post... For those less interested in the background of the data: see the graphs and skip the text to see how your favorite bow wood performs. The more upper right in the graph it is for both tension and compression, the better it should be.

I did some data crunching from wood properties I found in the wood database and wood handbook to have a better (objective?) view on what to expect from particular woods for bow making. Specifically, I wondered what makes good bow wood. I know there’s been other posts on this, but I think this might be a useful addition to what’s already been said and written about it. I just took some 60 woods, many of which are common bow woods, and some woods with less good reputations. I can add more to it upon request.
IMO, we want bow woods to be both stiff, light and elastic. Stiff refers to how much draw weight (and stored energy) you get from bending it a standard distance. Elastic refers to how far you can bend it before failure (taking set or breaking).

Stiffness is given by the modulus of elasticity (confusing, I know). I divided this value by the specific gravity of the wood. This allows you to compare high and low SG woods: low SG woods can for a particular design have the same draw weight as high SG woods, you just need to make the limbs accordingly wider to end up with the same bow mass. This is why the relative stiffness of bulletwood is so close to that of yellow poplar, despite having more than twice its SG.

Elasticity in tension (how much the wood can stretch in an elastic way) is given by the modulus of rupture divided by the modulus of elasticity. I do realize this is only a relative proxy for the real tensile strength, but it’s the best we have. Tensile strength is –according to the wood handbook Asharrow posted about recently- typically more than 30% higher in hardwoods, and only 13% in softwoods (but I would think yew is an outlier there). But tensile strength can also include non-elastic tension (“set” of the back fibers). Some bow woods have very high tensile strength (white oak), but this may not be elastic. And we really need that elasticity for good bow performance. So I guess the MOR/MOE is not such a bad indicator of bow wood quality after all.

Elasticity in compression is given by crushing strength divided by the modulus of elasticity. The graph says "%compression before set", but that is probably not what it really represents. Better consider both graphs as showing tension and compression properties relative to other bow woods.

Take these results with a grain of salt: they depend on the accuracy of the wood data in the wood handbook and the wood database. I don’t know how these were obtained (single reading for single specimen or average of a large number of specimens? I fear the former...). Also, they are meant for straight-grained flawless wood.

So how to interpret these graphs?
1)   there’s a trade-off between relative stiffness and elasticity: you can’t have both. The ideal wood would be in the top right part of the graph, which is empty. But some woods are a bit more elastic than expected from their stiffness (above the regression line).
2)   Really good self bow woods score above average for both compression and tension. Apart from the usual suspects (yew, osage, …), there are some surprises.
3)   A great deal of woods can give good bows, just make them longer/wider and thinner if they are less elastic. Look for woods that are, for their relative stiffness, highest on the vertical axis for both tension and compression.

Some observations:
could field maple and Norway maple be the most underrated bow woods? They have similar values for tension and compression elasticity as Osage orange, but much higher relative stiffness. So a same design norway maple bow (length, width, thickness) as an osage bow would have about the same draw weight, but have 30% lower bow mass. Which should increase cast. (in theory...)
Although pear wood has a lower SG than osage, it has for its SG very similar properties.
Catalpa is likely the worst bow wood in this list, being really bad in compression.
Although many softwoods are rather bad in tension, they are pretty good in compression, topped by Eastern red cedar (the best of the list altogether). To make really good self bows, ERC should be way above the regression line for tension, though.

Links to sources:
http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/products/publications/several_pubs.php?grouping_id=100&header_id=p
http://www.wood-database.com/

Joachim
« Last Edit: March 27, 2015, 05:27:19 pm by joachimM »

Offline adb

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Re: data crunching: bow wood qualities
« Reply #1 on: February 05, 2015, 06:37:01 pm »
Wow! Look at rosewood. Bloody hell. I've only made a couple bows out of rosewood, but according to your graph (if I'm interpreting it correctly), rosewood is good bow wood. They were both fairly low draw weight flatbows, but I was impressed with them. Light mass, good cast, low set.
The down side (and there always is)... it's the most expensive wood I've ever purchased.
« Last Edit: February 05, 2015, 07:38:40 pm by adb »

Offline Jim Davis

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Re: data crunching: bow wood qualities
« Reply #2 on: February 05, 2015, 07:45:03 pm »
Where did you find values for compression before set? That's very valuable information. Where did I miss it?

Jim
Jim Davis

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Offline willie

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Re: data crunching: bow wood qualities
« Reply #3 on: February 05, 2015, 07:56:58 pm »
why doesn't ipe show as being more of an outlier? I have heard of some exceptional claims for it as a bow wood?

adb

I was looking at your cold snake bow in another thread. maple over ipe, I believe?
do you think that the maple is doing more work than normal by matching it up with such a dense wood? What kind of performance have you seen with this combo? It certainly does not follow the conventional wisdom of the past, ie. backing with a wood that "is tension strong"
« Last Edit: February 05, 2015, 09:39:50 pm by willie »

Offline Jim Davis

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Re: data crunching: bow wood qualities
« Reply #4 on: February 05, 2015, 11:10:47 pm »
Come to think of it Joachim, you are still factoring in numbers for GREEN Osage, unless you are estimating, since no tests were recorded for  dry Osage.

As far as the number of tests per wood that were done way back when, I seem to remember reading that a coupe of hundred tests were done on each wood. Probably the reason nobody has set up to redo Osage.

Jim Davis
Jim Davis

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Offline DavidV

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Re: data crunching: bow wood qualities
« Reply #5 on: February 06, 2015, 12:49:10 am »
The wood database has estimated data on osage crushing strength but I think it's a very conservative number.

Interesting data
Springfield, MO

Offline joachimM

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Re: data crunching: bow wood qualities
« Reply #6 on: February 06, 2015, 04:30:24 am »
A few answers:

Ipe, why isn't it better? when combined with a lighter SG wood for backing (as is often done with hickory), you lower bow mass, but get a stronger absolute (narrow) belly to counter the pretty strong, more elastic but lighter backing.
Mark that the absolute stiffness of hickory is only 67% that of Ipe. So a hickory backing on an Ipe belly is similar to having a trapped back in a self bow: lower mass and weaker back for a stronger belly wood. But with the extra advantage of having a more elastic backing. 

Osage: yes the initial data on crushing strength of osage were estimated from green wood, and then extrapolated to 12% MC. So it may or may not be underestimated.

How to calculate compression before set: set equals damage to wood, hence non-elastic compression = crushing of wood cells. So compression before set = crushing strength / modulus of elasticity. Basically, at moisture contents above 5%, the proportional limit of wood (its margins of elasticity) is determined by the crushing strength.



 
« Last Edit: February 06, 2015, 05:33:54 am by joachimM »

Offline adb

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Re: data crunching: bow wood qualities
« Reply #7 on: February 06, 2015, 09:48:02 am »
why doesn't ipe show as being more of an outlier? I have heard of some exceptional claims for it as a bow wood?

adb

I was looking at your cold snake bow in another thread. maple over ipe, I believe?
do you think that the maple is doing more work than normal by matching it up with such a dense wood? What kind of performance have you seen with this combo? It certainly does not follow the conventional wisdom of the past, ie. backing with a wood that "is tension strong"

Maple is by far my favourite backing material. I've made more maple backed bows, in combination with all compression strong woods like ipe, osage, yew heartwood, etc., than any other. Maple and yew together seem to be a magical combination. The heaviest warbow I've made (that survived) is 120#@32" and is maple backed yew. Last summer, it was the best laminate warbow in Canada, rewriting the flight records in the CWBS. The heaviest flatbow I've ever made is 75#@28" and is maple backed ipe. I've used maple in  every bow type I make... short flatbows, long flatbows, tri-lam ELBs, tri-lam flatbows, static recurves, blah, blah, blah. You get the idea... I like maple.

Offline willie

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Re: data crunching: bow wood qualities
« Reply #8 on: February 06, 2015, 02:02:59 pm »

Quote
I've used maple in  every bow type I make......... adb

that is quite impressive performance. I see that maple is used as a backing for woods from all over the chart to good effect.

Does maple have recovery qualities in tension that cannot be seen  by crunching data from the forest service lab?

Joachim does point out that.
Quote
Elasticity in tension (how much the wood can stretch in an elastic way) is given by the modulus of rupture divided by the modulus of elasticity. I do realize this is only a relative proxy for the real tensile strength, but it’s the best we have.

Composite or backed bows give us an opportunity to use the the best qualities of each wood in the bow.
 
How do we go about knowing what the actual tension qualities of a particular wood are, if we are limited to a MOR derived from bend tests done only to the proportional limit in compression? 

In other words, how can we test just the tension qualities for the purpose of getting 
Quote
the extra advantage of having a more elastic backing.


Offline DC

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Re: data crunching: bow wood qualities
« Reply #9 on: February 06, 2015, 03:39:57 pm »
why doesn't ipe show as being more of an outlier? I have heard of some exceptional claims for it as a bow wood?

adb

I was looking at your cold snake bow in another thread. maple over ipe, I believe?
do you think that the maple is doing more work than normal by matching it up with such a dense wood? What kind of performance have you seen with this combo? It certainly does not follow the conventional wisdom of the past, ie. backing with a wood that "is tension strong"

Maple is by far my favourite backing material. I've made more maple backed bows, in combination with all compression strong woods like ipe, osage, yew heartwood, etc., than any other. Maple and yew together seem to be a magical combination. The heaviest warbow I've made (that survived) is 120#@32" and is maple backed yew. Last summer, it was the best laminate warbow in Canada, rewriting the flight records in the CWBS. The heaviest flatbow I've ever made is 75#@28" and is maple backed ipe. I've used maple in  every bow type I make... short flatbows, long flatbows, tri-lam ELBs, tri-lam flatbows, static recurves, blah, blah, blah. You get the idea... I like maple.

Adam, what species are you using?

Offline joachimM

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Re: data crunching: bow wood qualities
« Reply #10 on: February 06, 2015, 04:06:32 pm »
Willie,
Tests of the real tensile strength have been done to some extent by Tim Baker and others in the 1990ies. Many of these results are available in spreadsheet formats from the former yahoo support site of the paleoplanet archery forum. If i remember correctly, even red oak could sustain a back elongation of more than 1.4%, though a lot of is likely non elastic (set in the back). So that's not a lot of use to bow performance.

Offline willie

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Re: data crunching: bow wood qualities
« Reply #11 on: February 06, 2015, 05:33:24 pm »
Joachim-

Quote
though a lot of is likely non elastic (set in the back). So that's not a lot of use to bow performance.

If that were the case, couldn't one see or feel some indication of  back set or at least notice a distinct performance drop, just before a bow fails in tension. Have you seen the photo of the bow that took set and was resawn to separate the back from belly? Set remained in the belly half but the back returned to normal. Perhaps someone on the forum has examined failed backing lams, and can offer their observations.

 Any ideas how we could devise a simple experiment for this, or do you know a way to determine tensile elongation from Tims tests ?

willie
« Last Edit: February 06, 2015, 07:12:09 pm by willie »

Offline adb

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Re: data crunching: bow wood qualities
« Reply #12 on: February 06, 2015, 06:00:51 pm »
why doesn't ipe show as being more of an outlier? I have heard of some exceptional claims for it as a bow wood?

adb

I was looking at your cold snake bow in another thread. maple over ipe, I believe?
do you think that the maple is doing more work than normal by matching it up with such a dense wood? What kind of performance have you seen with this combo? It certainly does not follow the conventional wisdom of the past, ie. backing with a wood that "is tension strong"

Maple is by far my favourite backing material. I've made more maple backed bows, in combination with all compression strong woods like ipe, osage, yew heartwood, etc., than any other. Maple and yew together seem to be a magical combination. The heaviest warbow I've made (that survived) is 120#@32" and is maple backed yew. Last summer, it was the best laminate warbow in Canada, rewriting the flight records in the CWBS. The heaviest flatbow I've ever made is 75#@28" and is maple backed ipe. I've used maple in  every bow type I make... short flatbows, long flatbows, tri-lam ELBs, tri-lam flatbows, static recurves, blah, blah, blah. You get the idea... I like maple.

Adam, what species are you using?

I don't know for sure. It's not local, I know that. There is no bow wood were I live. I know it's hard maple, or sugar maple, likely from eastern Canada.

Offline dylanholderman

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Re: data crunching: bow wood qualities
« Reply #13 on: February 06, 2015, 07:53:50 pm »
pretty sure hard maple and sugar maple are the same thing >:D O:)

Offline adb

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Re: data crunching: bow wood qualities
« Reply #14 on: February 06, 2015, 08:48:11 pm »
That's what I was saying... it's hard maple, or sugar maple, from eastern Canada. Should I have said hard maple, aka sugar maple? All I'm certain of, it's from the genus Acer. Could also be Manitoba maple, another hard maple.