burried in water bow stave

[sleek]

I was speaking with a guy today at a gunshow who was telling me about a 25 year old osage stave he has. It came from a friend of his who 25 years ago burried it in a pond with many other staves. A year and a half ago it was recovered and gifted to him. According to him his friend was old school Cherokee.

This isnt the first time I have heard of water submerged ( in this case mud burried when the pond was very low ) staves being left to cure. Now I reckon being above water for 1.5 years its dry by now. But Im of the opinion if it had just been left in the attic for 25 years it would have been even better off.

Why do folks do this and who else has heard of it?  By the way he said its a very wide stave and if I split it and help him along I could have half.

[mikekeswick]

It removes sap or so we are told!

[sleek]

Removes sap? As in sap wood or actual sap? Why would we care about sap in the wood? Especially if its dry, it doesnt weigh anything... and ir could add a glue like substance to the wood helping it. Im confused.

[George Tsoukalas]

Al Herrin describes the process in "Cherokee Bows and Arrows".
Jawge

[sleek]

Looks like im off to the library on monday then. If indeed there is enought stave there then be split in half, I will for sure be making a cherokee bow keeping in spirit with everything.  Fitting considering my great x3 grandmother was full blood..

[willie]

isn't the stuff in sap what makes heartwood from sapwood?

[Sidewinder]

I have read Al Herrins book as well. I know that some traditions have in their origin a practical reason, others because it was done this way and this is the way you should do it. I'm not sure which catagory this falls into, but I'm going to offer a few thoughts on the matter. Be advised they are only questions or even opinions and not based on anything scientific.
 There is the possibility that this may have been a means of allowing the internal moisture content to release without having to worry about checking etc... I know that there must have become an equalization between the inside and outside MC of the staves cured this way. I am sure as well that it may have contributed to slowing the deteriation of the wood ( ala old growth timber from the bottom of the great lakes making violins with richer resonance) . Now I'm sure the native american bowyers would not have thought in terms of MC, but they may have observed the checking process and realized that bows made from staves that were taken from being submerged were less likely to check and then therefore they sought to artificially induce this.
 It also might have begun in response to the need to cure staves over time and not have someone find them and run off with them, so storing them in a pond would be a good stash place and would'nt hurt the wood. We know that exposure to air/oxygen will start the deterioration of the wood and so in an oxygenless environment the cell structure solidification in the curing process may have had a different chemical effect than if it were in the attic etc.

 Anyone else care to chime in?     Danny

[bradsmith2010]

i think it was to prevent checking,, and also it seems to have preserved them well,, Natives didnt have attics at that time,, so this was probably a great storage solution,,also it would keep the temp from ever changing quickly ,, and would also keep the moisture content constant,,, never changing at all,,  

[vinemaplebows]

I have read Al Herrins book as well. I know that some traditions have in their origin a practical reason, others because it was done this way and this is the way you should do it. I'm not sure which catagory this falls into, but I'm going to offer a few thoughts on the matter. Be advised they are only questions or even opinions and not based on anything scientific.
 There is the possibility that this may have been a means of allowing the internal moisture content to release without having to worry about checking etc... I know that there must have become an equalization between the inside and outside MC of the staves cured this way. I am sure as well that it may have contributed to slowing the deteriation of the wood ( ala old growth timber from the bottom of the great lakes making violins with richer resonance) . Now I'm sure the native american bowyers would not have thought in terms of MC, but they may have observed the checking process and realized that bows made from staves that were taken from being submerged were less likely to check and then therefore they sought to artificially induce this.
 It also might have begun in response to the need to cure staves over time and not have someone find them and run off with them, so storing them in a pond would be a good stash place and would'nt hurt the wood. We know that exposure to air/oxygen will start the deterioration of the wood and so in an oxygenless environment the cell structure solidification in the curing process may have had a different chemical effect than if it were in the attic etc.

 Anyone else care to chime in?     Danny

I agree with what you wrote.....Alot of times to inner wood is dryer than the outer near the cambium layer, a month is plenty though in my opinion. Maybe Badger, or someone in plum country can do a test....as it is real prone to checking.

[Jim Davis]

One thing for sure: No borer damage under water.

Another, maybe the sapwood would rot off  leaving the heartwood? That would be cool.

Jim Davis

[sleek]

Well, when I get ahold of it I will try and get a split off it to send whoever can test it.

[Eric Krewson]

I am of the "no wood borers" camp as well. I am sure this practice originated long before sealants for grains and pesticides and was the only safe way to keep staves out of harms way until you could make a bow from one.

[mullet]

I've read an article in PA about submerging them in Saltwater and Buffalo urine.

[vinemaplebows]

You get the urine, I'll get the water!!!

[bradsmith2010]

collecting buffalo urine seems a bit hazardous  I like to keep my bow making on the safe side