Bannerstone Discussion

[Zuma]

After presenting my thread on Abo Drilling and having so many interesting replies I have decided to try a continued discussion concerning bannerstones.
Of course I am biased towards drilling since I have satisfied myself and many others that have tried my tool kit that it is certainly a reasonable possibility.
There is one remaining catch to the drilling theory imo. Why did stone drilling stop in the Woodland Era?
Or did it?
I would sure like as much input as possible. Pro or Con is what it's all about.
I have lots of ammo for drilling and anti atatl weight use. But it is mostly my opinion backed up by scads of research. Not much of which points to bannerstones being used as drilling aids.
Also I have not as yet found info where stone drill bits are found with banners??
Nonetheless here are some of my thoughts. I hope they compel others to research anything that they are interested in.

  “Running away from any problem only increases the distance from the solution. The easiest way to escape from the problem is to solve it.”
 
1---Drilled holes fit shafts like rivercane not ancient atatls.

2--- Drills made from broken spear or arrow points were most likely hafted on these type shafts.
These shafts could be used to drill stone without stone drill tips. Just using grit.

3--- Larger holes are usually drilled in tubular type bannerstones-- Perhaps for fire drills where larger shaft diameter is helpful .

4--- Winged and shield type banners perform very aerodynamically when spun on a shaft.
Thick and rectangular shapes are actually counter productive. (experiment)

5--- A banner adds weight to the drill or fire starter shaft. A definite plus.

6--- On a bow drill or fire starter downward pressure on the shaft causes the string to slip.
The weight of the well fashioned stone does not.

7--The shield or winged banner works well and enhances drilling on a hand shaft or a bow drill shaft. Hand shaft has to be way longer than bow shaft in order to accomplish adequate spinning.

8---Who is better to create and use a banner than the drill master.
The bannerstones would facilitate all types of drilling not just stone.

Here is a way interesting pfd file enjoy and thanks for looking.
I am sure you will have to cut and paste it. Unless some nice member
can get it to click in.

A Preliminary Report on the So-Called" Bannerstones"
www.jstor.org/stable/660669

of stone somewhat resembling the drilled stone axes of the Old. World. Here ... Many fanciful names such as bannerstones, ceremonial axes, maces, butterfly ...


Zuma

[Parnell]

Thanks for sharing the link.  I've read several pages...finish it tomorrow!

[Zuma]

Glad you took a look Parnell. I have collected all around the area
of the quarry but not directly close. Maybe 50 miles.
Finding that pfd was the first I knew about it and the entire
production line of banners.
There is a claim that there are no banners found west of the Big Muddy.
I wonder if it is because there is no soft stone or what?
Many mysteries.
Zuma

[Buckeye Guy]

Thanks for sharing this with us !
good read!

[Zuma]

My pleasure Buck.
I have found more links. Here is another.

The Archaic Bannerstone by David L. L
www.thearchaicbannerstone.com/About-The-Book.html


I also include some photos of my experimentation.
In brief --- Originally I made a drill bit from some Edwards chert. I tried it by hand on a 30"shaft. It drilled ok.but made my hands sore. I could put some weight on the work this way by starting the palm action high and swiveling down the shaft.
I always thought a winged or shield bannerstone would help the process.
I made one and put it on the shaft. The drilling went way better.
Next I shortened the shaft and made a bow. The rig in the photos below. I used a natural cap stone.(fossil from CA beach. I was drilling with it very fast and got careless and broke the bit. It still drilled a little. I was able to drill from both sides.
I was not accurate in my hasty alignment. lol
I thought it was time to try some cane as my bit was exhausted. (mostly from my carelessness and instable platform.
I was able to drill a bit with the cane and some chert grit. But it didn't last long as the string quickly frayed and the cane was not true and caused problems.
I will rethink cane and pursue it in the future.
I am excited with my new experiment. Photos below.
New drill bit (gnarly English flint)
New length of shoe string (not abo)
Quick run down---
The soapstone is 1.8 mm thick(11/16")
I stopped drilling from one side-- the hole (start side) tad less than 9 mm (7/16 ")
I finished the hole by hand by twisting the shaft and soapstone. ( less chance of breaking the drill as I could feel the slightest catch).
Bow drilling time an exciting  6 min's.
Hand drill 1 min.
No damage to the equipment except a little wear on the drill tip (expected as the drill tip was very thin).
Questions and input anxiously wanted. lol
Zuma

[Zuma]

More photos of experiment.

[Zuma]

last photos .

[Buckeye Guy]

Looks like your getting there !

[DC]

I can't seem to stop thinking about this but I really don't know anything about them. But anyway if the stone was to act as a flywheel a disc shape would be better although it would be harder to stop and start at the beginning and end of each stroke. Because of the thinness of the disc it would also be more difficult to get a lasting joint between the stone and the spindle. A spherical shape would concentrate the weight and would reduce the flywheel effect but would allow for a better joint with the spindle. The shield shape is weird. It reminds me of the governor from a clockwork motor. The fan effect would slow the thing although very slightly I think. It just bothers me that they would go to all that work (making the shield shape and drilling the long hole) when a sphere or a disc would be so much easier to make. I mean, if you want to drill a bunch of holes or start a fire would you care that much what the tool looked like. Maybe they had way more time on their hands than I think. Just a few thoughts, maybe not worth much.

[JackCrafty]

If you move the banner close to the drill bit, I wonder if it would blow the drilling dust away?

Anyway, a wooden banner would do the same thing, but maybe the higher weight of the stone makes the whole drill more stable?

[DC]

If you move the banner close to the drill bit, I wonder if it would blow the drilling dust away?

That's funny

Anyway, a wooden banner would do the same thing, but maybe the higher weight of the stone makes the whole drill more stable?

Maybe they did use wood and none survived

[Zuma]

Great questions and ideas.
DC I dream about these things and don't really want to. lol
What really drives me is the hole diameters. It just don't make sense for an atatl.
No matter I wish you could try my rig. I don't exactly know why but the shape
is all important and it really works well. I'll post a photo of a blocky banner that was worse than having nothing at all on the shaft.
I couldn't imagine a better drill rig and if I had to make a living drilling holes in prehistoric stone, making a banner like mine would not be a problem.
The ease and speed of the drilling would be totally worth the effort.
BTW Mine has semetrical wings. In one of the links they said usually the wings are slightly off set. A little like a propeller. Hummm.
Using the rig under shop conditions would better insure it's longevity compared
to running through the woods and streams chasing game.
Thanks for the input. Please keep thinking about it.
Jack, the dust idea is a good one. For some reason in the beginning I was blowing the dust. Why I don't know? It actually takes you off balance a bit.
When I drilled the last hole I didn't clear the dust till the drill was
 poking through the other side of the soapstone.
It would be interesting to learn if leaving or removing the dust matters in the process.  The dust I created is heavy and I don't think the banner would remove it.
But if I turned the banner upside down it would be better for that idea.
About wood weight-- why not on atatl shafts too. Why don't we find atatal shafts here in N. America??
I really appreciate the neat responses. It may help me sleep better.
Thanks again and here is another link.
Zuma


   Drills of Indians - Marianopolis
faculty.marianopolis.edu/c.Belanger/.../DrillsofIndians.htm  
The work done by the American Bureau was monumental, well informed and ... Artificially perforated objects of bone/

[Zuma]

LOL I forgot Patrick,
I know full well you are an innovator extraordinaire.
So I post this just for you my friend.

Use a worm to clear a cane's core.
Put a wood bore larva in one end and seal it.
Then heat the shaft and make the worm eat for it's life.  Use a little more heat
just before the job is done and you can eat a steamed treat as well.
Zuma

[JackCrafty]

About wood weight-- why not on atatl shafts too. Why don't we find atatal shafts here in N. America??

Zuma, there are survivimg examples of atlatl shafts, and the various parts, in the Southwest.  Here is a good page that details finds in Tularosa Cave, New Mexico:

http://basketmakeratlatl.com/?page_id=458

[JackCrafty]

For those who are not aware, many atlatls in the Southwest look like the example below.  Note the use of colorful river pebbles as atlatl weights.  No bannerstones here.   

---http://basketmakeratlatl.com/?page_id=1129