ABO Drilling

[Zuma]

I made a little drill rig and tested it on some leather and some slate.
It worked fine. The shaft is short for hand drilling which I did
as I haven't made a bow as yet.  I am really pumped as everyone
 that has tried the drill with and without the bannerstone, really
notices a major increase of ease in the drilling.
A longer shaft would be better for hand drilling and perhaps with
a bow also. I need to experiment.
I tried a fat blocky bannerstone but it was very poor as a counter weight.
Knowledge and questions of these things welcome.
Zuma

[Parnell]

That is very cool.  For some reason I had thought they were for Atlatl use but simply seeing that makes PERFECT sense.  Did you make the bannerstone? 

I guess my question is if that is a bannerstone then what would you call the stones on the atlatls?

[Zuma]

That is very cool.  For some reason I had thought they were for Atlatl use but simply seeing that makes PERFECT sense.  Did you make the bannerstone? 

I guess my question is if that is a bannerstone then what would you call the stones on the atlatls?

I have a thread on making the bannerstone and some thoughts.
My thoughts on abo atlatl weights---- I'm sorry to say- is nonsense.
The shield type bannerstone I made has a  pretty big hole. 3/8"
Most real atlatls I have researched have way bigger shafts.
There is no real archeaological evidence for atlatl weights and they
 have been proven to be pretty much worthless for spear throwing.
I don't think most folks really look at the device from a practical cant.
More romantic. I think since they have some of the most difficult holes to drill
that they belonged to the drill masters.
Zuma

[longbow man]

        Pretty cool Zuma.

[Parnell]

 I've only made one atlatl and a few darts so I'm new with it, but I follow.
The atlatl I made works fine with no stone weight and I've been wondering why they were needed.
Very interesting Zuma.

[stickbender]

     I remember reading some where, that they had found an intact atlatl in a cave in Alabama, that still had the banner stone attached.  I think it was tied on not drilled, not sure, can't remember.  Hurry up and make a pump bow for that drill!  Cool project.

                                     Wayne

[swamp monkey]

Atlatl weights are an interesting subject.  They still generate a lot of discussion as a mystery.  There is some relevant information out there that is worth digging into.  For example at indian knoll Kentucky a number of atlatl hooks (Spurs made of antler) handles ( if made of antler) and bannerstones were all found with burials.  The interesting thing was a consistent placement of these items.  This was made all the more relevant because soil stains indicative of rotted wood indicate the hooks banners and handles were lined up in the way you would expect them to be on an atlatl. Those wood shafts left a trace showing their presence! Worth a wad to be sure.

Larry Kinsella is talented man who replicates Stone Age technology to learn more about how it was done.  He has a site called megalithics.  He worked with a university to do an experiment on having and not having a bannerstone atlatl and its effect on the arm of a hunter.  They used muscle monitoring electrodes to determine the bannerstone did reduce muscle fatigue for a hunter who was locked in the ready stance.  Deer hunters will appreciTe this function.  Atlatls without the stones showed more muscle stress.  This is scientific evidence there is a potential benefit.

My son and I experimented with the atlat  with and without bannerstone.  We found that the bannerstone thrower sent darts a shorter distance.   However, I may not have been tuning things right.  Think about it this way.  If I make two radically different weight bows and use the same weight and spine arrows on them both, then I will get a performance difference.  That is what i did with my atlatl experiment.  I did not tune my darts to fit match my atlatl.

Larry Kinsella won the world atlatl distance throwing competition one year with a thrower that had a large winged bannerstone. 

 All of this simply says bannerstones are still linked with atlatls and there is growing evidence they served a purpose.  I doubt this post will put things to bed.  It is meant to be another point of view.  However, I encourage those who are curious to read up on the subject.  Get some good information and Make up your own mind. I changed my mind on this topic over the years and it has been due to reading up on it.   Oh and if you get the chance do some experiments with it, go for it.  We can all learn something from that!  Keep making stuff ya'll.

[stickbender]

     The hand drills, bow drills, and pump drills, I have seen that had the stone counter weights on them, had them at the bottom, just above the drill point, and were round like a disk.  That banner stone is beautiful.  How long did it take you to get it done?

                                    Wayne

[Zuma]

Stick,
From what I know the pump was a Spanish introduction?
No matter the weights seem to always be there. Makes sense as you do not really have to press the shaft down at all or at least not as much.
The banner weight as a counter balance and direction enhancer is also pretty cool with a longer shaft that you work with your hands and downward pressure.
The bow string above or below the weight is something I want to experiment with.
Along with shaft length VS wobble etc.
Zuma
Not all that long Stick, cause I cheated here and there.
Swamp--- many things to explore. Thanks for getting envolved.
Can't wait to explore gorgets! yikes!

[Zuma]

Thank you all very much for the comments and information.
I think the discussion can only enlighten. I hope I don't come across as  argumentative.
 I like the winged and the shield type bannerstones. I guess it is because I have found mostly that type.
I have them in  pre form state also. Here are a couple. Now you must admit that it took quite a bit of trouble just to get them to the pre form state. I would also like to mention that there are not really many banners found in excavations as most might think. The only way to know is to research.
There are a lot of abo petoglyphs and cave paintings of atatls. I have never seen one with a stone attached.
The atatl was still in vogue when the Spanish dealt with the natives of South America. S was the thrusting spear. No stones mentioned
or recorded by their priests that I know of.
Alaska for some reason ( I think I know why. Open water hunting.) has many preserved atatls from the past. No weights.
No weights found on atals in South American excavations.
Leaving a sizeable knot on a limb where a stone weight (might for some reason be placed) would do the job quite nicely. Preferably on the lower side of the atatl shaft.
Think about it! If a hunter need a killing weapon-- (which he needed every day) -an atatl for example--- and he just broke the last of his banner stones. How the heck could he protect and feed his family until he could get another one made to the exact specifications to operate well on his spear thrower? Bare in mind a hunter of the pre bow times. His out of balance, out of tune, inaccurate weapon would be useless.
BTW no one I know has ever thought the weight helped accuracy.
I could have miss this though.
Zuma
I have an endless supply of anti atatl bannerstone use and pro drill use. The biggest is shaft diameter.
I am pretty sure that if I can measure the effectiveness of these weights on drill shafts It could be useful.
Many others have worked with the atatl weight theory. Thanks for entertaining me on my journey.
Zuma

[Zuma]

The one experiment that I could do by hand was switch the shield banner with
the very thick one. They are close in weight but not shape.
The chunky one seemed to be very poor at direction change.
Worse than no weigh actually.
Zuma

[Zuma]

Well I finally had time to make a bow today.
Nothing pretty but very effective.
I tried a long shaft first and found it to flexable.
I first expanded some holes in thin banded slate with
 the shorter shaft. It worked fine.
I got a 5/8" hunk of soapstone and scratched in a little
starting hole. Wrapped the shaft with the bow string
and tried it with out the weight. It worked OK but the string would
slip if I put a little pressure on the shaft holder stone.
I put the bannerstone on and things really perked.
I drilled into the soapstone so fast that I didn't even time it.
I think I got about a 1/2" deep and stopped to look at the depth
and symmetry of the hole. I must have taken my shaft keeper stone away
and the bow pushed the shaft forword and snapped the drill.
To be continued---- lol
Zuma

[Zuma]

Some more pics