sometimes they just don't want to lay flat

[Badly Bent]

Thought I'd put this one up for discussion after reading the thread Sidewinder started, maybe you'll feel better about your work after seeing this one Danny.
This is a Tupelo stave that Gun Doc gifted me at the classic this year. Thanks Josh. I liked this wood and it just seemed to want to bend and become a bow, always fun to try new wood species and this almost finished bow shoots nice and I am very happy with it. Gonna put some nice skins on it and a finish as soon as I have time.
Now if you'll all look at the unbraced profile you'll see it's a little less than attractive but mimics the natural shape that I started with in the stave. I first tried to heat the deflex out of the top limb to match the bottom and tempered the whole bow real good with the heat gun. This was after floor tiller and three weeks in the hot box until it quit losing weight. It lost all of the reflex that I had added after I got it braced and bending evenly out to about 12"-14" of draw. Tempered again adding the same amount of reflex as before. Didn't hold again after getting it drawing evenly out to 18"-20".
So to be clear I added 2" reflex and tempered, lost it and then added the same 2" back and tempered again and lost it. From there I just tillered it on out to a finished 25" draw where it took an additional 1" set. So now it is apprx. 1" of set from the staves original side profile.  Is that 1" of set or 3" of set? 
The picture of the side profile below was taken just after shooting it in and the limbs crept back up about 1/2" or more after resting an hour. It's around 55" ntn and somewhere in the mid forties for draw at 25". I'llpost the specs after I get a finish on it. Would like to hear your opinions on the set and any discussion on what may have been done differently. Could be something to learn from this.  Thanks, Greg
 

[J05H]

The way I understand it, if you started with 2" reflex and ended with what looked like 1" of set, then its actually 3" total set and 1" string follow. Anyone please, feel free to correct me.

[George Tsoukalas]

Excellent tiller. It could have been a little wet?
1+2+2=5" of set which happens to include an inch of follow.
Don't worry about it.
Jawge

[DLH]

I don't have anything to comment about the set but I really like that simple bendy bow Greg

[soy]

could it be the argument of dry vs seasoned? regardless is a very nice-looking bend!

[Badly Bent]

Could be it was still wet Jawge and thats kinda what I was thinking as I worked it initially. I did have it in the hot box
for three weeks after floor tiller and started working on it a couple days after it stopped losing mass weight on the scale. Another thing is that it was really humid here for some of the days in the time I spent working it on and off and a few of those days I had it at home and not back at the shop in the box. I did notice that it gained some physical weight on those days when I weighed it. Could be one of those woods that absorbs moisture rapidly.

[TRACY]

Second the tiller Greg ! Challenging piece of wood. I'm not into the numbers, except deer harvested with the bow . I really thought the second tempering would have stayed put. Looks like another great bow!

Tracy

[Badger]

Tiller looks excellent, classic example of just getting all you can get out of a bow. Do you know how much mass the bow has? The mass principle tends to run a bit light on shorter bows but I would think you need a minimum of about 12 oz, if you have considerably more than that I would suspect moisture or high humidity in your area.

[osage outlaw]

Very nice work Greg.  I'm saving this post for future reference 

[rossfactor]

Excellent tiller. It could have been a little wet?
1+2+2=5" of set which happens to include an inch of follow.
Don't worry about it.
Jawge

Bear with me a second on this...

I understand (I think) the definition of set and string follow that you're using here. And this is something I'v mulled over for years as well as read and participated in more than a few discussions on the subject. 

We always talk about set in inches (e.g. total number of inches deformed from the original profile, irrespective of induced reflex). The problem that I struggle with is that I don't really believe set can be truly measured in inches. String follow is of course measured in inches because string follow IS how much the bow bends towards or away from the string when all is said and done. Therefore string follow is a 'length.'

But I would like to argue that set isn't really a 'length.' Because set is really about damage to the structure of the wood. So, I would pose the question, does two inches of set in, say Osage, and two inches of set in, say Oak, cause the same loss energy to transferred to the arrow.  Or to put it another way, does the amount of set in different woods produce the same increase in hysteresis and/or  limb vibration (ultimately energy that is not going into the arrow).  My feeling is that it does not, although at this point that is just a conjecture.

Maybe this is fodder for just another "set," "string follow," energy in wood type discussions... but I figured I'd add it here.

Whats interesting about this case (given what I just wrote) is this question: if you induce reflex, lose it in tillering, re-induce it, and than lose it again, have you done an equal amount of damage to the wood in both tillering sessions?  Perhaps, but perhaps not. Again my feeling is probably not (I'd guess that most of the damage to the wood was done in the initial tillering session, because the strcutre of the wood is fundamentally different after heat treating it....)

Thoughts?  Should I start another thread? Should I go to bed 

BTW, Sweet bend on that puppy Greg, that's a great looking bow.

Gabe

p.s. definitely not trying to start and argument with you Jawge, just wondering if we can expand on what "set" really is.

[IdahoMatt]

That bow looks like a dandy to me Greg.  Set or no set.  Great looking scalloped job behind you as well

[Badger]

  Gabe, those are good questions. I know it does vary with different woods, I don't know how much. I have seen red oak board bows that were almost unaffected by heat treating and reflexing, they just go right back to where they started like this bow did. I don't know the wood he used here, but possibly it doesn't take heat treating and may be no more affected by the set than it would have if not reflexed.  I can tell you that osage is greatly affected by set. 10 fps difference in two bows with the same finished profile but one having taken less set is not uncommon.

[Pappy]

Sweet bow Greg,tiller is very nice,looks like a shooter to me.  Man I am going
to get to see all kinds of cool new stuff up close at ElmHall.
   Pappy

[Badly Bent]

To answer your question Badger the finished mass is right at 15 oz. when I weighed it yesterday out of the hotbox where I'm keeping it until I have time to put the skins on it. It was at 15.25 oz. when I put it back in there three days ago and lost that .27 oz. overnight then has remained stable for the following two days which makes me think the 1/4 oz. was from humidity. Is the 3 oz. above ideal mass a big factor in the finished bow in your opinion? Seems like a lot of extra mass to me if this is the case. I think it would be helpful if I paid attention to side tillering when working my bows and seeing set as it is happening.
One thing I forgot to mention is that it was from a small diameter tree of about 4" at the base so it has a pretty good crown on the back if that matters.
I still don't understand how to determine total set/string follow. Seems to me if the bow finished at 1" below roughed out profile and 3" below heated in reflex that would be a max. of 3" set. And the sting follow would be about 1/2" since that is the difference between where it lays when unstringing after shooting from where it sat prior to stringing.
As far as performance goes it does seem a little sluggish for the draw weight but not overly so compared to some of my other similar bows but then again I don't consider any of my bows to be screamers. A chrono would be helpful but that might cause some disappointment from the readings.  

[dwardo]

Thats a nice bendy  I love the shape of a natural unbraced look.

So far as set goes I can only pose more questions. Is natural shape as good at resisting compression as a heated in shape? No idea.