Peer Review

[Badger]

        Jawge brought up something in another thread today that I think is worthy of a topic in its own. The last 20 years of bowyering have been an exciting ride, we have been rediscovering an almost lost art. As time goes by we can find more an more things that have been written that can also be challenged. This doesn't neccessarily take anything away from the guy who wrote it as he most likley has made a lot of contributions to the sport and many of the things past authors have wrote at a very minimum got us going in the right direction or brought up questions that needed to be looked at.

      Todays bowyers are the best I have ever seen, I don't mind admitting that a lot of you have past me up. I feel I can still hold my own but there is no substitute for natural talent combined with good information. Successful bowyers have been able to seperate fact from fiction combined with thier own experience and continually raise the level of bowyering to new heights.

      Things I swore to be facts 10 years ago I would be embarrassed to have my name associated with today. Very often I will read something I like or dislike but really can't give a difinitive reason as to why I like it or believe it or not. This is where we can have some fun, finding ways to challenge ideas either proving them right or wrong. Most of us agree there is no magic involved in bow making, sometimes it seems like it only because we haven't been able to expalin something. I would encourage anyone to feel free to challenge me or anyone else anytime you feel you found a method to really nail something down.

     I am always happy to find a better way to do something no matter who gives me the idea. Constructive arguements can be fun and interesting.

[koan]

Amen on all counts Steve!.... Brian

[PEARL DRUMS]

Very flattering post Steve. You have been in this business for a lot longer than most of us have, by far. I cant prove what was known 10,000 years ago, but Im willing to bet bows are better, faster and last longer now than they ever have. I realize those folks lived by the bow, but that doesn't mean they had it all figured out, it means the tool worked is all. Our brains and our society has evolved so much that we now can explain and measure most of what we know and change it to better the tool. Now that doesn't mean a simple bent yard stick isn't an effective bow. But if we don't push that envelope we never get any better and we would all still be shooting bent yard sticks. Im glad its evolved as it has.

One more thing to add. I think all the gatherings that have popped up helped a lot. If you never get to compare your work to others, you really don't know what "no handshock" or "fast" really means, and vice versa.

[half eye]

Maybe part of the arguing (and not discussing) is caused by the different approaches to archery? I really believe that the American attitude of bigger,better, faster and stronger does not always apply. All of you guys build technically superior bows, but if you think about it some people like to replicate the old items for the enjoyment of the primitive aspects. If that was not so a lot of you blackpowder shooters wouldn't do that you'd get a .338 Lapua and kill everything at a 1,000 yards. You shoot your flint locks because it puts you in touch with your ancestors and the limitations of the archaic way of shooting. A further example is the entire concept of rigid handles, other than the ability to carve in shelves and ergonomic grip shapes there is no purpose to them......and yet NA bows are looked as inferior. They are only inferior because you shoot them in the English manner and not in the NA manner.  Not arguing, just saying that bigger, better, faster etc. is not the end-all and be-all for everyone, sometimes the enjoyment comes from replicating the primitive items for what they are/were.

rich
PS: The improved version of anything, by definition, is not primitive....just sayin

[Badger]

  Halpf eye, I agree with a lot of what you say. Looking at the few examples of very primitive bows and studying the bows or recent and still existing primitive tribes one thing becomes clear. Everything about the bows they used made sense and had good logic behind it. Thier bows evolved over a period of time to best suit what they used them for and what they had to make them from. They would usually settle on one type of wood and a couple of proven designs so the only place they had to go was improvement. If we can duplicate the bows they built I respect and admire that as true craftsmanship and art. If they simply look like one of these bows I don't take them too seriously but still respect the bowyer for his artistic ability and enthusiasm. This may seem hard to believe but I admire enthusiasm and passion for a sport more than any of the great bowers who I also admire.

[PEARL DRUMS]

We are talking as if there was some kind of stoppage in primitive archery the last 10-15,000 years. It has been constantly evolving since day one. We each choose to pick a time frame to mimic. To say one style is primitive and one isn't, that's not true. I tend to mimic bows in the 100 yr old range, others go back 200 yrs plus.

[Badger]

  One great example of a well designed well thought out bow were I think the Andaman Islanders. They used bows for fishing. They waded through waist deep water and shot fish with arrows. Their bows were long, flat, wide with veryy narrow lever like tips. The bottom limb was more than a foot shorter than the top limb to keep it from dragging in the water, The bows were very long like English longbows to store lots of energy and launch very heavy arrows that can penetrate water pretty well. Thes little design characteristics are more obvious than most but you can be sure all the best characteristc will be incorporated into almost every tribes bows.

[SLIMBOB]

This is an interesting topic Steve and your take on it makes it particularly so.  Guys like me and the vast majority of every other member of this forum have benefitted greatly from the knowledge that guys like yourself share so freely.  The bows I make are what they are and I have my own personal assessment of each and every one of them, but they would not be what they are without having had access to all the data you guys put together and made available to all the rest us.  Who's better at this or that?  I don't know, so much talent on display by the members here it's just crazy, but your bows, and your experience, and mainly your involvement takes a backseat to nobody.

[PatM]

If it's artificial sinew, it's not primitive...

[JonW]

When the proper amount of humility is utilized I appreciate any information from anyone. I try the best I can to be respectful to everyone. PatM you are the type of person that the rule of turning the other cheek was implemented for. Now I have to feel guilty for engaging in the type of behavior that you are always instigating.

Jon W

[PatM]

No, I am just misunderstood.

[JoJoDapyro]

Pat, do you use modern tools when building bows? Or do you use only period tools? Do you only use Hide Glue, or Pine glue, or do you use Tight Bond? I am going to call out Pearl Drums for a moment. I have been thinking about this for about 2 days. You commented on a post that someone "cheated" because they build Board Bows. Then the next day you post a thread about a Backpack bow you made "Basically on the band saw". If using a board is cheating, isn't then using modern tools also cheating? I ask this with all due respect. I am an infant in this hobby, and I truly do respect all of you who can bust out a working bow in a day. I have been working on my board bow for over 10 hours. I have used only the most basic of tools as I would like to learn the craft, and learn how to do things before I teach myself shortcuts. So I guess my question to this thread is, What is "Primitive" about the bows we are building? If we are using B50 or fast flight for string, and Modern glue to hold things together, or even tools that haven't been around for all that long. I believe they are Primitive in design, but made in a very modern way. Once again, With all due respect. I have learned so much from those of you who post. Thanks for allowing me to be a student, even if I am still a bad one.

[PEARL DRUMS]

That was a joke pyro. Give me 3-4 days and Ill post a board bow for you Ive been working on. This means Im being sarcastic.

[JoJoDapyro]

Thanks for the lesson. I didn't think you were being mean, but I just wanted to ask. My friend is afraid to post some photos of his Tamerisk bow because it turned out bad, and assumes people here will judge him too harshly. I tried to tell him otherwise, plus, sometimes medicine isn't sweet.

[bubby]

This is the problem with forums, sarcasm just looks like you are a jerk in print, guys take things wrong all the time, soon as Pearlie posts his girlie bow you will see lots of sarcasm