Makin a half-eye scrap stave shorty...conclusions / tips added

[half eye]

Hey fellas,
     this is how I go about makin the little shorty's from stave off-splits etc. The first few pics are what I mean by scraps. The ones in the pics are some Ironwood, but I already started on the scrap of osage from my H Rhodes stave awhile back so those pics are here also so you can see what I started with ...but after I cleaned it up on the bandsaw.

NOTE: In this build I'm using a disc sander and scraper for my convenience but you can use a drawknife, rasps or whatever to proceed with the "flat plane" surfaces at the beginning stages.

[half eye]

Heres pictures of the trimmed up stave. Showing the prop twist and snake. I steamed for 2 minuets to align the tips somewhat but nothing else.Forgot to say that at this point is when you cut out the front profile. On this bow I came in 12" from the tips and marked the edges...from that point to the tip is straight line to 1/2" tips. Then you scribe your edge thickness lines. sorry for the omission. Once that was done I use my "finger and pencil" to trace the curves of the back onto the edges.   I know from experience that I wont need much thickness on the short bows to make decent weight so I started with about 3/8" and traced both sides. If your not sure start thick and re-do till your near floor tiller (stick is just starting to bend. These pics are the initial cuts (I use a bandsaw like normal folks use a draw knife)

When you follow the lines the flat plane of the cut should form about a 45 degree angle so that when both sides are done ya have a sharp "V" ridge roughly down the center of the belly....if it aint centered no big deal cause we aint done yet.  When you get these cut in make sure to check lightly to get a sense of the stick's strength. before proceeding.

NOTE: Keep in mind that I do not use a tiller tree, I bend the bows over my knee. Please remember that the tiller tree shots are so you can clearly see what I see by bending on the knee.

[half eye]

Forgot the photo of the grip angle to flat limb start cuts so that's added to the bottom of this part, 26 is the flattening cut and 24 shows the sharp ridge..

The next step is to flatten the "V" ridge ( a little at a time).....BUT not the center. I go one hand width above and below the centerline of the bow and dont ya dare touch that area for now.....stay away. What ya wind up with is a couple of semi flat limbs that transition into the 8" center "V". Check for bendability like floor tillering and if the bow will bend enough to bring the tips around about 2-3 inches Then I suggest that you have a string 1" too short and just barely bend the bow to see if there are any glaring errors.

In this case it looks like the right limb is way weak and the left is way to strong. Which is true......however......that is not the only reason. The left limb tip is naturally reflexed and the right is flat to slightly deflexed. In this case you would have 2 options tiller hell out of the left tip and mid-limb and try to get in time with the right....or you can slightly flip the right tip to match the left tip at least partially, and then correct the tiller. I chose the second for the following reasons.
1. a recurve and straight limb have completely different draw shapes (the straight limb will always look weaker because the outer portion opens up before the flipped tip does so that limb will look stronger.....got both roughly the same shape in profile and then shaped the left bend to match.

notice that the long string "brace" is mirrored in the 17" bend. Shows that the difference is clearly visible w/o pulling the bow.

[half eye]

Forgot a couple pics so I'll add them here. one is the pencil tracing deal and the other is after I got the tips fairly similar. Picture of both sides.
sorry

[half eye]

fellas, got to upload the rest of the pics and resize will get back asap.
rich

[Del the cat]

Yo Rich, the black magic is in those fingers
Great tiller on that baby.
Del

[burchett.donald]

Rich, this is interesting and thanks for posting...I know you don't like folks bragging on ya but...How bout that Short Bow Bible? I'd purchase a signed copy!
                                                                                 Don

[half eye]

OK fellas,
    Here is where it's gonna get fun (with incoming). This is going to be contrary to all your books and bibles, so dont go yellin. I do this based on my understanding of some of the NA methods based on first hand reports. So hear me out, and remember it works (you have seen the photos). Once you have your bow to low brace, AND EVERYTIME you bend the bow from now on, you bend the bow backwards ( yes, counter-flex for about 2-3 inches. If you start at the beginning you will actually excersize the bow wood "memory" for where "zero" is. It will choose to be in that position by memory. Ok ya think I'm bonkers but look at this way, why do you flex the bow between tiller changes? exercising the limbs......dont believe that only works in one direction. you can actually train the wood where unbraced profile is.

photos show the brace profile as soon as I got it where it was very close to symetrical with a slightly stiffer lower limb. Once satisfied with the brace, put it on the tree (Iuse my knee) and slowly work your way down the draw scale untill you are at your desired draw weight  or untill you reach draw length with lower weight. In any case do not exceed any of these:
1. any sign of asymetry between the limbs
2. you are about to exceed your draw weight)
3. you are about to exceed your draw length plus one inch

OK here's the photo's

[burchett.donald]

Never thought of counter-flex ...Your right about exercise but I always thought it might raise a splinter on the back. Do you actually exercise the counter-flex?
                                                                                                             Don

[half eye]

There was a very little bit of scraping as I got it down to about 17". At this point I am of the opinion that the tiller is not going to change, just weight. So it went on the tree, put the scale on it and pulled her down. At 25" I thought it blew up cause everything just disappeared, and damned near crapped the drawers pucker factor of about 10 What happened is the string came off, that was a first for me so once I found the bow (stuck in the ceiling (haven't found the string though. Needed to go to plan "B". I sanded down a little piece of osage, drilled pilot holes and super-glued the "square buttons" to the end of the pin knocks. Then back to the tree, although the wife was not happy she took a photo of draw on the tree, there is also a hand held full draw. I stopped pullin at 25".....so 41-1/2" bow   44# @ 25"  dimensions in the next installment.

Here's the photos
rich

[half eye]

Don, not in the tradition meaning of "exercise" . I simply push on the bow until I feel just a bit of strain
and then let off and then a second, lesser amount. Thats it .

Will get tech specs up about 8:00'ish.
rich

[half eye]

Fellas, here are the dimensions and other spec's.

Wood is Osage
length:  41-1/2 ntn
Draw weight 44# @ 25"
width @ grip 15/16"
width @ tips  1/2"
Thickness measurements (micrometer because of crowned belly)
a. grip area   .62
b. upper mid limb .41"
c. lower mid limb  .35"
d. upper tip .30"
e. lower tip .35"
Physical weight: 6-1/8 ounces  /   174 g
"mushroom knocks after loosing string

If there are any questions that I did not cover or explain correctly PLEASE comment so I can maybe explain better. If I see any mistakes that need correcting I will enter them in red so they dont get missed. Hopes this may help anyone interested in makin a shorty.
rich

[half eye]

OK fellas, here's what I believe about building shorties.

1. You can make them with exaggerated draw length....but
2. what you give up for the extra draw length is cast. To make them past 1/2 bow length is sneekin
    into the area of "diminishing returns". To keep good performance do not exceed 1/2 bow plus
    1" more or less based on original length. EX: bows over 50" maybe 2, under 50 but more than
    45" maybe 1".
3.  If you tiller out to your desired weight at 1/2 draw plus 1", then flip the tips about 1 to 1-1/2 inches and then draw to 1/2 bow length. This will keep your speed and cast good.
4.  If you make a flat profile bow (straight, flat outer limbs) then make it to 1/2 bow length. The short bows that survive 1/2 bow length for draw will be good enough beyond that to cover any slight over-draw.

It's fun to make these long draw shortie, and they shoot OK (suitable to the task) but if you want a shorty that is up there in performance plan on 1/2 bow length plus one inch, after that is just braggin rights and if ya hunt.....that wont do.
rich

[randman]

Love all your posts Rich. And I got no argument with your methods or results. I too think there might be something to the bending backwards slightly for memory reasons. Fascinating stuff....

I only have one thing to point out:

Thickness measurements (micrometer because of crowned belly)
a. grip area   .062"
b. upper mid limb .o41"
c. lower mid limb  .037"
d. upper tip .030"
e. lower tip .035"

I'm suspecting this is what you meant:

Thickness measurements (micrometer because of crowned belly)
a. grip area   .62"
b. upper mid limb .41"
c. lower mid limb  .37"
d. upper tip .30"
e. lower tip .35"


.62 = 5/8"
.062 = 1/16"

No need for that pesky zero.....easy error to make

[H Rhodes]

That ought to start some interesting discussion.  Counterflexing huh?  It makes perfect sense to me.  Watch a tree blowing in the wind.  It has tension strength in more than one direction - the wind can come from any point on the compass.   I intend to experiment with counterflexing bows some in the future.  I don't know why that I have always believed it was taboo to bend a bow backwards, even a little bit.  You mentioned "training" the bow to find it's flat unbraced position.  That also makes sense to me.  You got my wheels turning with all this Rich.