First Stave - Elm (BROKEN)

[Crogacht]

No need to twist the while thing! Just do the ends, then twist the whole string in that same direction, easy as that. A string takes me 10 min tops like this

Yeah I know that's how most people do it, but for some reason I had to do the whole thing... it looks pretty nice though  One's in future will just be the ends probably.

[Crogacht]

I'm getting there I promise! 

Still a lot of wood to take off to get it bending more than a few inches. Maybe this weekend 

Probably should have taken the photo when I was pulling on the rope...  Oh well.

Had to deal with the black locust and get it inside and also have to tidy up my new toy sometime too.

[Crogacht]

Actually, I've been wondering about this for a few days.

If you look at the first pic in my last post, you can see that the limbs leave the handle at quite a different angle.

How do you deal with this when tillering?

I see bows on PA that look similar from the side, but when at full draw, the tiller looks perfect. Does this mean that the limb without the deflex (?) just moves a couple of inches more to reach full draw? Does this effect anything, or is there anything I need to consider when dealing with this kind of bow?

[Pappy]

You just have to deal with what you have, I sometimes take some of that out with heat but you must be careful not to spilt it up into the handle area,most times I just go with it and make it work.I can't tell any difference. You are for sure making progress. Just remember the hump's and reflex/de flex as you are tillering and don't let them fool you into thinking you have a stiff or weak spot,a good even limb thickness will help a lot to start. On staves like that sometimes the tiller don't look prefect when it really is. Slow and easy and be sure to look at both sides often,study it before you move on.
   Pappy

[Crogacht]

Thanks for the encouragement Pappy

I'll try and get it bending a couple more inches so I can actually see what it's doing, then I'll work on getting the bend nice and even before I pull it any further. Will post a pic here probably.

[Crogacht]

Alright, I've been working on getting this thing bending a bit today.

Any advice regarding the tiller?

The first pic is with the long string, and it is taut, but not enough to make the limbs move.

Second pic I've pulled it to 30lb at 12 inches draw measured from the back of the handle (note masking tape measurement in inches, thanks to George T , solves all my problem with different kinds of handles etc)

It LOOKS like the right limb is bending only at the fade, but if you compare to the first pic, it's already at that angle when it leaves the handle. I might do a bit more on it today, but wanted to get opinions/advice/yelling etc. if anyone is able, Thanks guys

I'm thinking about working the mid limb a bit on both side to get it to come around another couple of inches.

[Crogacht]

Another couple of questions.

There was a strange bulge in the stave when I started, and it wasn't until I got down further on the belly that I realised it was a decent sized knot/crack that never seemed to form into a branch. Anyway, it ended up being in the middle of the limb just before the tip. Seems relatively sturdy, as it still has the bulge of wood to (hopefully) hold it together. The crack is quite wide though... sawdust and superglue???

Also, the deflexed limb. Should I make it the top or bottom limb?

Thank you,

[Crogacht]

Thinned the tip with the bulge a bit. Still leaving the tips non-bending for about 5 inches currently.

Took a bit more wood off both sides.

Took some wood off the handle to make it a bit more comfortable to draw while tillering.. still probably a lot of removal/shaping to be done there.

These pics are 0@0 and 35@16

Aiming for about 40-45@26-28... really need to decide now I suppose. Not even 100% what my drawlength is.

I could be wrong, but I THINK it's looking alright... It has probably 25-30 degrees prop twist + the deflexed limb, so maybe it's throwing me off, but I hope I'm on track. Should I be making a proper string and bracing soon?

Do I need to have more limb working to reach my goal? Is stiff handle still realistic? Help! 

[DarkSoul]

It's not looking bad But you're not yet ready for a low braceheight.
Such a deflex in one limb, near the handle, is always tricky to tiller. You want that deflex to be still showing in the full draw pic. That means the fade will appear a bit hinged when you draw the bow. In your current pic, the right limb has about the same tip deflection as the left limb. Yet, the deflex dictates that it should bend more for equal tiller. So you need to scrape the right limb a bit more, so it shows more tip deflection than the left limb. Especially the fade (that area that is deflexed) is too stiff. I can even see from the picture it is much thicker than the midlimb. The left limb is looking fine, although most of the bend is in the midlimb. Stay away from that midlimb for now.
That crack in a knot near the tip might scare you, but it's not much to worry about. It's cracks in the BACK of the bow that you need to be careful with. I can only see three pictures of the belly side of the knot. What does the back look like? I'm guessing clean? I would just leave it as is, for now. Once the tiller is finished, you want to narrow the tips and refine them. Only then you could consider filling it if there is any crack left. But this near the tip, the forces on such a crack are small. A drop of super glue won't hurt, but it's probably not strictly necessary. If it was near the midlimb or fade, then it would be a whole different story.

Perhaps I missed it, but what it is the length of the stave, nock to nock? A stiff handle seems doable.

[Crogacht]

Excellent advice, thanks very much

I was a bit scared of that right fade with the deflex, I didn't know what to do with it so I hadn't really touched it yet. I think I was trying to tiller it so the deflex disappeared (and succeeding I think ), but looks like I need to do the opposite. Instead of making the tips line up, I should be making them deflect by the same amount, which will bring the right tip down a bit further than the left.

I'm trying to leave the tips stiff for the last 4 or 5 inches, and that crack/knot is right there at about 3-4 inches, so as you say it should be OK hopefully. The back of the bow is pretty clean there, just a bulb of very hard wood. It's like there was a branch there or something and it rotted out a bit and then the tree grew over it? Kind of like scar tissue, it's quite strange.

If you check out my original post in this thread, the third pic down is the lump on the back that covers the knot/crack.

The stave is 60 inches ttt and about 58 ntn.

Exactly what sort of tiller should I be aiming for on this one? It's supposed to taper more or less in a straight line from fades to tips, but my fades aren't very wide due to mistakes made at the start, so the difference in width between fades and tip won't be as much as usual for an elm 60 inch bow I don't think.

[Richard B]

Well impressed as a first bow. I'm also trying my first bow in elm (see my "elm stave" post). I thought mine was difficult to tiller allowing for undulations in the back, but yours looks a whole level more challenging!
Looks like your doing well so far. Good luck

[Crogacht]

Thanks Richard, it's been a learning experience to say the least... and I've still got 3 staves from the same log to deal with 

Alright, this is ~35 lb @ 20 inches. I took darksoul's advice, and tried to make the deflex visible when you draw the stave

The limb thickness looks really strange in the photo, but I think it's the prop twist distorting things. My next step this afternoon will be to scrape the left limb in general with focus on the inner-mid area. Once I've got that bending a little more I'm going to make a string and brace it. Assuming no one intervenes and tells me I have made something better suited to hang a door with (lots of hinges.... get it? )

I'm going to take it to 50@28

[Crogacht]

Well, I know you guys like a good break, so here she is 

I took a bit more wood off, was pulling about 35@23, and I was happy with it so I made up a new string and braced it. Had quite a nice shape, should have taken a picture...

It was pulling 35 @ 20 and looked really sweet to me, so I took it down and was exercising it by hand and I must have over drawn it by a couple of inches and it went CRACK.

I honestly think it would have made it if I hadn't overdrawn it. It was so close, but not close enough.

Oh well. I have another bow ready for the tiller tree, so I might start work on that this week, and if that one breaks, back to elm for the next few staves.

I'm fairly happy with how it went, given how many issues the stave had, but can't do much about it now 

EDIT: Looking back at the pics on the tiller tree, the spot where it broke is a bit straighter when unstrung, so I'm wondering if the bend that looked so nice was really a hinge hidden by the slight reflex at that spot. Maybe that + pulling it a bit far was the cause.

[Weylin]

Here are a couple things to consider. I think you pulled it to far past some clear problems. You only want to pull the bow far enough to see a problem and then you take the bow down and fix it. that right limb was doing way too much work compared to the left limb. You should have fixed that before you pulled any further.

The other issue is how long you stuck with the long string. Your long string should be just long enough to slip into the nocks with out putting the bow in tension, any longer and you're making your tiller harder to read. The long string is deceptive and doesn't truly give you a good read on your tiller. It can be useful for looking for major problems during that brief time between floor tillering and first brace. You want to brace the bow as soon as the tiller looks decent when you pull the tips down 4-5". Weight and draw length mean little at this stage.

Learn to listen to your fingers, especially on a stave like this one. Your eyes can trick you with all the whoopdy-doos but your fingers can tell you if the thickness taper is smooth and constant without any thick spots or thin spots. If the thickness taper is perfect then your tiller should be darn near perfect. Calipers can be a helpful aid as you hone your magic fingers. I still use calipers sometimes to confirm what I'm feeling.

I hope that makes sense and is helpful. You seem to have the right attitude about all of this and that will take you far. You picked a tough stave for your first bow so don't be discouraged that it didn't work out. Can't wait to see your next project.

[DuBois]

Too bad man. It was looking real interesting.
Lots more wood out there so keep after it and keep us posted