Limb Timing

[PatM]

Bogaman, I'd love to time that thing. I'd do it just like I do any other bow.

Probably not. I don't think the construction would permit that and you won't do much shaping of that handle.

[mikekeswick]

Saying that the relative speeds of the returning limbs doesn't matter is like saying tiller doesn't matter. Essentially they are one and the same, or at least both parts of the whole.
How you would go about measuring it......well......I use feel and closed eyes to tell when my bows are 'done'.

[PatM]

 The point is that it's not the actual timing of the limbs that's being adjusted.
 It may be the way someone explains making a bow shoot smoothly but it doesn't make it real.

 It's like saying your muscles burn from lactic acid when you exercise strenuously. It sounds great and makes sense because acid burns  but it doesn't actually happen.
 People will still use that expression forever though.

[PEARL DRUMS]

That'd be micro tears in your muscle Pat! What do I win man?

[toomanyknots]

To all timing advocates. How would you time this puppy? ;^)

Ha!

[Del the cat]

Saying that the relative speeds of the returning limbs doesn't matter is like saying tiller doesn't matter. Essentially they are one and the same, or at least both parts of the whole.
How you would go about measuring it......well......I use feel and closed eyes to tell when my bows are 'done'.

I don't think anyone is actually saying that... I'm certainly not.
I was saying I believe it's a flawed concept, within the constraints of a "reasonably well tillered" bow.
We all all strive for reasonably symmetrical tiller, and when that is achieved, I feel the geometry and physics does a good job of balancing the bow and the forces for us.
MY extreme example was just that.. an example.
I feel if we are looking for a scapegoat for handshock then excess tip mass (or over light arrows) is my bet (or maybe global warming  )
Del

[Badger]

  The best way I have found to properly time a bow is to tie a string from one nock to the other. In California we call them bow strings.

[killir duck]

hehehe

[dragonman]

all the arguements about bow tunning etc assume that we all pull a bow with perfect posture and alignment like a machine designed to draw a bow...in reality nobody does this because we are all asymetrical imperfect humans....therefore , trying to apply exact rules of physics dont really apply ....although they may help some types of bowyers, it doesnt seem to apply to most wooden bowyers IMHO

there is a few points  though...a  bow   string acts like a lever on the limb and if the string length below the arrow is longer its leverage effect is greater....like increasing the length of any lever increases its leverage power....this lends weight to the idea of making the bottom limb slightly stronger... so I have always put the the strongest limb on the bottom,,,but in some bows I've noticed that the upper limb gets weaker as the bow is shot in?? and in other bows the reverse happens.....
my conclusions are that wooden bow making cant be reduced to scientific formulas and thats why I like it ...interesting brain exercise though to try and understand these things

[SLIMBOB]

Well said dragonman.  Interesting discussion for sure.  Great question Marc!

[George Tsoukalas]

Yes, sure do.
I can see my limbs bending and returning in unison on the rope and pulley on a well tillered bow.
Now I read in a previous post on this thread that poorly tillered bows are timed. Good luck shooting those bows.
Perhaps with a homogenous bow material like FG this would not be an issue. Wood is not uniform.

When  I shoot it I can sense the limbs returning in unison.
These days most everyone (except me) pops their bow onto a form and heats it to bend it to shape and get it to conform.
Work a character bow or 24 and you may see the importance of timing. YOu'll feel it in the hand shock.

I am not on a quest to get anyone to believe in limb timing though. So it is fine.
My only quest has been to get people interested in self-bowyery.

Timing is everything.
Jawge

[Marc St Louis]

It is entirely possible that we all are just talking about the same thing but just looking at it from a different perspective.  Making a bow, to me, is getting the limbs balanced with uniform tips so that they are very close to the same and bending smoothly so that it neither rocks back or forth when drawn.  I call that proper tillering of a bow.  Some may just call it timing a bow.

[dragonman]

yes I agree...marc..."bow timing" is a misleading term, implying something other than correct tillering is necessary....when any archer with some experience can recognise a well tillered bow as soon as he shoots it...without any specalist knowledge of so called bow timing...and generally if both limbs are tillered to within !/8"" a bow will shoot well

why complicate matters?   maybe to appear more intelligent? or in possession of specialist knowledge?  (just teasing of course!!)

[George Tsoukalas]

Marc, depends on what you call a well tillered bow.
You are achieving good timing on a well tillered bow by choosing good bow wood and heating.
Some bowyers these days tiller by eye only. There is much more to it.
With the last osage bow I built each of the limbs came into the handle at different points.
It does not have that picture perfect tiller. Yet it draws and shoots beautifully. Pressure is even on the handle. The arrow is away with a silent push because the limbs are timed well.
Jawge

[Marc St Louis]

Marc, depends on what you call a well tillered bow.
You are achieving good timing on a well tillered bow by choosing good bow wood and heating.
Some bowyers these days tiller by eye only. There is much more to it.
With the last osage bow I built each of the limbs came into the handle at different points.
It does not have that picture perfect tiller. Yet it draws and shoots beautifully. Pressure is even on the handle. The arrow is away with a silent push because the limbs are timed well.
Jawge

Quite frankly George, a well tillered bow is well tillered regardless of whether it has character or is picture perfect, at least it should be.  Now if you are suggesting that all I make are picture perfect bows then I guess you haven't seen them all.  Most of the bows I make are for someone else or for articles and as such need to be as free from character as possible, at least the ones for other people.  Character bows are nice but the character reduces their reliability and that's not good for warranty.  I'm sure that given the choice most people would pick good bow wood rather than mediocre bow wood but there's always the exception to the rule.  As far as tillering by eye only, that's a bit of an assumption.  I would tend to think that most all good bowyers tiller by eye, by feel and probably by gut as well.

I'm sure your Osage bow is well tillered.  How about posting some pictures of it?