Evidence OTHER than MR Bows of 120+ bows?

[brian]

Whilst following this thread with interest ,i was wondering what is the definitive minimum altitude that qualifies a yew stave to be classed as[high altitude],search as i may , i cannot find a E.U. directive that qualifies this.Also could this be open to question  under the Trades Description Act.

[WillS]

The higher the altitude, the thinner the air, giving less oxygen so the tree grows slower.  This creates a denser, tighter wood than trees growing lower down.  It's the same with Pacific/Oregon yew.  England doesn't have any really high yew-rich mountain ranges.  If we did, I'd have bought a chainsaw and some hiking boots. 

There were a lot of very nice looking yew trees in Snowdonia when I last visited however...

You're being tongue in cheek with your comment of course, but it would be interesting to know if anybody has done tests on yew from various altitudes with density results.  There's probably a table somewhere in a book...   There may well be a point where the density spikes dramatically at a certain altitude where the conditions really slow the growth.

[Del the cat]

Sorry to be a constant nay sayer , but I think the altitude of the treeline is more about climate (temperature, wind etc) than oxygen. (errrr don't trees respire carbon dioxide?  )
If you really want to know Mr Google will point to a multitude of learned papers.
Del

[adb]

The higher the altitude, the thinner the air, giving less oxygen so the tree grows slower.  This creates a denser, tighter wood than trees growing lower down.  It's the same with Pacific/Oregon yew.  England doesn't have any really high yew-rich mountain ranges.  If we did, I'd have bought a chainsaw and some hiking boots. 

There were a lot of very nice looking yew trees in Snowdonia when I last visited however...

You're being tongue in cheek with your comment of course, but it would be interesting to know if anybody has done tests on yew from various altitudes with density results.  There's probably a table somewhere in a book...   There may well be a point where the density spikes dramatically at a certain altitude where the conditions really slow the growth.

There's the same amount of oxygen at the top of Mt Everest as there is at sea level. 20.95%. The air around us in made up of 79% nitrogen and 21% oxygen. That doesn't change until the atmosphere ends. The atmospheric pressure is less. It's the difference in the partial pressure of oxygen that makes a difference. Humans existing at altitude use supplemental oxygen not because there's less, but because the pressure is lower. This is a bit off topic, but it's important to get your facts and info correct.

Trees growing at altitude do so slower due mostly to sunlight levels and poorer nutrition, not decreased oxygen levels.

[WillS]

Well then I stand corrected!

Not too off topic and if somebody reading this learns something new it's never a bad thing!

Still, the overall point was that high growing trees are denser than the exact same tree growing lower down, which is a good attribute for bow wood and MAY have been an important consideration when outsourcing yew for warbows.

[Heffalump]

Come on boys, just a few more combative posts and we'll hit the 10 page mark with this thread !

John T. 

p.s. Hey WillS are you up for the Fraternity of St.George shoot at Royal Windsor deer park on Sunday? Its only a few quid, plus insurance and there's a few of us going 

Shoot info here..... http://www.longbow-archers.com/LeafletChristmasShootENG.pdf

[WillS]

Combative?! This is passionate debate right here!

Didn't know about the shoot John, thanks!  I'm playing a gig on the Saturday night but if I'm not exhausted I might try and make it up there.  S'along way for me to go though.  I'm saving my travel pennies for Mark's EWBS shoot in March!

[Heffalump]

This threads seems to have run out of steam somewhat  ...... How about we spin it back up to speed with a few words of "Wisdom" from Mr.Bickerstaffe. Extracted from the ILAA website....

"Name: Pip Bickerstaffe
 Suggestion: On the subject of which woods are to be avoided, typically most English yew will make poor and frequently brittle bows, that break. It can also make quite soggy bows; both are disappointing. Bamboo is not a wood and should never be used.
 Maple can be used as a backing and can also be totally unsuitable, you need to know what you are looking at to avoid a broken bow.

If the wood you are looking at has an established history as a bow wood then it is likely to be OK but there are few woods that will successfully back bows and provide reliable bellies. Look at the bows that are professionally made for guidance. If you do not see the wood offered by a reputable manufacturer then it might be best avoided. Best to ask the question of someone who's opinion you can trust before you spend the money"......

(Sits back, opens popcorn)

[Del the cat]

By 'ek lad I wouldn't trust Bickerstaffe to tell me t'time if he were stood under t'town hall clock
Del

[WillS]

Honestly, my email inbox is packed with conversations with Pip full of the stuff.  He once told me that ash will never make a longbow of any weight, and English yew will chrysal and fail the moment it hits 100#.  Like I said before, he's not actually misinformed or deliberately obtuse but his problem stems from printing very early information into books and now he has to stand by what he said, despite recent discovery and testing proving him wrong all around him.  He's probably more annoyed than anybody else that he's dug himself a hole. 

Lets try to avoid turning this thread into a hate piece for somebody who isn't here to defend himself though as hopefully we are all above that!

[Heffalump]

......."He once told me that ash will never make a longbow of any weight, and English yew will chrysal and fail the moment it hits 100#.  Like I said before, he's not actually misinformed or deliberately obtuse but his problem stems from printing very early information into books and now he has to stand by what he said"......

.....and lets not forget, his elves have probably just run another shed-load of Hickory/Lemonwood bananas through the bandsaw that he's planning to get banged out on the interweb before Xmas Eve........not to be a cynic or anything... (pauses to puff pipe, look over half-glasses and wink to camera to inject additional gravitas)......but thank goodness we're above making facetious comments like that eh?   

[WillS]

Well personally, until I can make high performance longbows like he can, I'm not going to go out of my way to bad mouth him.  I do think some of his theories are far fetched, and I do think he's mucked up in the past by saying certain things, but that doesn't make him a bad bowyer.  Did you have a go with the 100# Bickerstaffe that Chris brought to the NLHF?  It was gorgeous.  Everybody on this forum uses a bandsaw to make bows if they have one, so there's nowt wrong with that.   Are your bows all hand made with hatchet and draw knife?

[brian]

Just to keep this thread going,i was speaking to a very eminent bowyer[,no names no pack drill ]yesterday and he was telling me that you can have timber DNA tested .It would be very interesting to find out if any tests have been carried out on the Mary Rose bows to find out excatly what region the yew came from

[Heffalump]

That's more like it Will! ......are we on page 10 yet?

P.s. Absolutely no argument with the use of power tools matey, I'm not a Luddite. Incidentally, I understand that Mr.Pippersqueak very rarely makes a bow these days, which is just as well, as he's already cut bits of his fingers off using a bandsaw. He's far too busy pursuing another hobby with the profits these days and has a range of guest bowyers that make em for him until he upsets them and they leave......allegedly. No doubt some good bows do find their way out of his workshop, but my personal experience with his wares has certainly been disappointing.

Pip, pip (or rather not) 

[WillS]

It's only three pages long for me... I changed the page settings yonks ago :-P

Will he be at the ILAA Windsor longbow shoot? I liked Dave's response to the whole shebang!