Evidence OTHER than MR Bows of 120+ bows?

[WillS]

I thought I'd add a brief passage from Weapons Of Warre by Robert Hardy regarding the yew bows found on the MR:

"The quality of the timber, its density, in many cases the extreme fineness of the grain, suggests that the timber was of a straighter and finer quality than could have been found in the British Isles.   It is likely that most of it was imported from the Continent where such timber certainly could be found."

I'm not arguing of course that English yew can be superb, but is there enough of the superb quality English yew to ration hundreds of thousands of bows that have to be made quickly? I don't think there is.  I don't know, none of us do, but I don't think there is.  Your recent warbow may well have been made from excellent ""quality"" English yew.  But could you now go out and find 20 more staves that you could do it with in a very short space of time?  If the answer is "no", or "I don't know" then importing bowstaves from a country that gives the answer "yes" makes sense, doesn't it?  In which case, the reason the English imported Spanish/Italian/Portugese yew is down to the "quality" of the wood. 

The odd person can of course make stunning warbows from English yew, because they have the time to rifle through a bunch of staves until one stands out as being suitable.  I don't think that would have been practical if you were ordered to make hundreds.  That isn't saying "all English yew is bad quality" because of course it's not.  But there isn't enough English yew of good quality available.  So better wood was imported.  Because it was better. 

Perhaps.

Your ability to leap to unsupported conclusion is still pretty breathtaking

I would also like to add a small personal preference as well - just because I don't add the word "may" or "perhaps" to every single sentence doesn't necessarily mean I think my opinion is 100% correct full stop.  I'm too focused on getting my opinion into writing quickly to add suppositions to everything.  It shouldn't be taken so seriously.  Hope that makes sense?  I would never claim to actually know about this stuff to the extent where I can make a statement and hope everybody else reading goes "oh, right.  Well, if he said that then there we go!"  If I forget to add "may" or "I suppose" or "I think" to something I write, just treat it as if I have.  S'easier that way.

Let's not argue, eh? I don't know any of the answers, I only know what I think.  I won't ever claim to actually know, but sometimes I'll forget to make that clear.

[toomanyknots]

What I think is that I should bring back this great tax, why ever was it ever discontinued? Anyone that wants to travel within my realms has to, by decree, pay me one stave. That means front yard, my house, parking in front of my house outside, (why would any neighbor do this?!) ,parking in my driveway, etc. Wife's relatives included.

[Del the cat]

I'll just quote from the quote that you quoted
"The quality of the timber, its density, in many cases the extreme fineness of the grain, suggests that the timber was of a straighter and finer quality than could have been found in the British Isles.   It is likely that most of it was imported from the Continent where such timber certainly could be found."

That just shows it could be the clear length of staves that was important, not the actual timber quality.
E.G There are thousands of dead straight clear staves of Hazel, Willow, Aspen and other woods. But the timber itself isn't suitable...
There is a big difference between the staves being better and the timber being better..

To some extent I'm just playing Devil's advocate because those who go in print saying English Yew is unsuitable, because it is a) Too britle or b) Too full of moisure are doing the amateur bowyer a huge disservice.
I am just trying to redress the balance based on my own experience.
Del (I'll quit now else we'll just go round in circles)

[WillS]

those who go in print saying English Yew is unsuitable, because it is a) Too britle or b) Too full of moisure are doing the amateur bowyer a huge disservice.
I am just trying to redress the balance based on my own experience.
Del (I'll quit now else we'll just go round in circles)

Well all I'll add is that I agree entirely with the above sentiment.  I think English is superb, if you have the time and dedication to find the right piece.  Which most amateur/keen hobbyists do have.

[meanewood]

Good time to throw my two bobs worth in.

You guys are a major asset to this forum with your knowledge and passion for the subject. Don't stop, we are all learning more each time we discuss these issues.

I can see where Del has an issue when it comes to English Yew. He goes out, finds it and makes bows out of it ( Dammed good ones) so I can understand if he feels it gets a bad 'rap' in some of the literature and warbow circles.

Ive learnt a lot from books and forums but nothing beats the knowledge you get from 'getting your hands dirty'

In my opinion, the reason Yew began to be imported was they had exhausted the native supply of usable wood, a bit like I'm doing around my neighbourhood! There is still plenty of Elm, Black Locust and other bow woods around here but none that I can use!

Anyway, thanks for the good debate

PS: Less Yew talk and more Meanewood topics

[Del the cat]

Thanks for the vote of confidence.
Yup I agree on the meane wood, I made an Elm one a while back and I aim to do a Hazel 'stick' Warbow soon. I might even go for a quick seasoned one... really push some poor Hazel stick to the limits 
I feel the need for a walk over to the woods with my pocket saw 
Del

[PatM]

I don't think it's far fetched to assume that clear Yew was once available to a greater extent in England. Slow growing trees that likely aren't a very numerous species can be impacted very quickly with indiscriminate cutting.
 In North America Rock elm was once extremely valued as a timber for shipbuilding and Hockey sticks. Even allowing for the elm blight it is now exceptionally rare.
 If you think that the first thing people do when inhabiting a land is cut EVERY tree down in most areas, the fragmented populations go even faster.

[WillS]

Finding clear, straight yew probably wasn't an issue as much as finding yew dense enough to make huge numbers of high poundage artillery bows.  There are still ancient yew trees in England which are perfect for bow staves, so that suggests they didn't even try after a while otherwise wouldnt all the good yew have been used?

I reckon they knew denser, harder yew was easily obtainable from the continent, so why waste time scouring england in the hope of finding the odd perfect tree when it can be brought in en mass from overseas?

[Atlatlista]

Finding clear, straight yew probably wasn't an issue as much as finding yew dense enough to make huge numbers of high poundage artillery bows.  There are still ancient yew trees in England which are perfect for bow staves, so that suggests they didn't even try after a while otherwise wouldnt all the good yew have been used?

I reckon they knew denser, harder yew was easily obtainable from the continent, so why waste time scouring england in the hope of finding the odd perfect tree when it can be brought in en mass from overseas?

Why do you keep calling them "artillery" bows?  Is that the Tudor terminology?

[PatM]

The ancient yew trees that look suitable now have had 500 years to either grow or grow over knots etc. You would have to go back in time to see what actually happened.

[Del the cat]

Finding clear, straight yew probably wasn't an issue as much as finding yew dense enough to make huge numbers of high poundage artillery bows. ...

!!!
I'd have though exactly the opposite.
AFIK there is no evidence to support the theory that the actual wood isn't good enough for bows.
If that were the case the bows wouldn't have evolved here!
We hadn't always imported Yew, we imported it because our supply was dwindling.
It's about supply and convenience.
If we can get the Italians to chuck a load of staves in every time they bring over a ship full of wine then we'd have been daft not to. It doesn't mean the wood was any better ... it was just convenience.

Two little tests.
a) Where do you get apples? Most people prob get 'em from the supermarket, even Mrs Cat gets 'em from there, yet for a good portion of the year they are free on the trees on public land in Harlow (I collect 'em and make cider ). Convenience!

b) If your employer said you had to bring two bags of soil into work each week else you would loose your job. Would you go and select the finest quality high altitude soil, or would you shovel up two bags from the most convenient point in your garden, possibly incorporating any cat crap that was lying about? Convenience.
Del

[Del the cat]

From what I've seen of our Yew, you need to manage it or grow it in fairly dense thickets maximise the clean straight growth.
The places I've seen most staves per tree have been fallen trunks which have then sprouted with a line of tightly packed straight poles, and Pollarded Yews where the poles grow long and straight. These are both forms of management (the fallen Yew could have been simulated by being partly cut and bent down like laying a hedge. A perfectly normal technique)
Managing a copse or plantation of Yew doesn't take much time or effort, but it would take a lot of elapsed time. (prob just walk through twice a year rubbing off any buds, side shoots etc)
Woodland management needs planning and long term committment. If we suddenly wanted to ramp up production for war effort, we may well need to import (or outsource, to use the curent jargon )
I don't know anything about how they grow at high altitude in Italy.
Del

[WillS]

As far as I'm aware, the stuff growing oop high in the mountains is very different to ours.  I guess that's why Stratton and Poletti guard it with their lives and you just can't get hold of it.  At least, you couldn't for a long time. 

One problem is that you can get hold of poor quality "Italian" yew which is the pale, wide-ringed timber you can find on eBay, or through a couple of notorious online bow makers.  It doesn't make stunning bows and is very different to the really high-altitude Italian yew that I assume was used for the warbows. 

[Del the cat]

As far as I'm aware, the stuff growing oop high in the mountains is very different to ours.  I guess that's why Stratton and Poletti guard it with their lives and you just can't get hold of it.  At least, you couldn't for a long time. 

One problem is that you can get hold of poor quality "Italian" yew which is the pale, wide-ringed timber you can find on eBay, or through a couple of notorious online bow makers.  It doesn't make stunning bows and is very different to the really high-altitude Italian yew that I assume was used for the warbows.

I think you have been indoctrinated... resistance is futile...you will be assimilated...
Del

[WillS]

'Ere,'ang on.  Aren't you basing your opinion on having seen one poor quality "seconds" bow made from coarse Italian yew?