Help with ELB lateral stability --- tiller check

[k-hat]

the HBO elb i posted over on the swap forum is giving me some trouble.  Learned the hard way i shouldn't reduce belly wood too much before glue up .  so anyway, it turns out my tips (last 10" or so) are too narrow at the moment (at least for how deep they are), and are wiggling sideways, even with a decent brace.  I've flattened them out quite a bit reducing the belly, but they are not there yet (stable), and i'm afraid i'm running out of wood here.  I also piked to bring the nocks to a wider section of limb. 

Any suggestions on how to remedy this?  What about adding some overlays to the sides of the last 10" or so of the limbs to give a little more width and stiffness?  anybody ever try something like that?  I could make it decorative and pretend i did it on purpose

thanks for any help!

[adb]

Did you glue in reflex? How narrow is your bow?

[k-hat]

Yup.  Glued in about 1.5" of reflex.  Handle is a hair over an inch wide i think, at nocks i think it's at about 3/8" or just under.  The width taper is fairly constant.

[Carson (CMB)]

I am surprised you are having stability issues with tips that wide.  Are you sure the instability is not from uneveness in belly thickness, from side to side? 

[k-hat]

I'll measure them again when i get home, they may be narrower.  I've been real careful keeping the thickness uniform, but i'll check that as well (was planning on that anyway).  The tips started out fairly square, maybe a hair thicker than width, now they are more rectangular (rounded), but still almost as thick as wide.  When i brace it, i can see and feel the tips move side to side (and the string follows) when i slightly move the bow side to side.

[Del the cat]

Too late.
You should leave the tips wide until it's about 2/3 of the way to full draw, that way you can shift the nocks to one side or another.
Because an ELB is virtually a square profile (as wide and it is deep) it doesn't really care which way it bends, so it's better to keep tips wide early on.
Tie two bits of 'boo together with the thick ends as a grip and it has no back belly or sides... it will bend any way. An ELB is a bit like taht until you have teased it to some sort of tiller.
Here are two posts from my blog which talk about it (I searched the blog for 'sideways bend')
http://bowyersdiary.blogspot.co.uk/search?q=sideways+bend
Del

[adb]

Yup.  Glued in about 1.5" of reflex.  Handle is a hair over an inch wide i think, at nocks i think it's at about 3/8" or just under.  The width taper is fairly constant.

That's your problem.

[k-hat]

I may stick to staves after this lol.  I measured again and the tips are actually right at 1/2"wide by about 9/16" deep, so still have some reducing to do (i thunk i'd removed a lot more than that but oh well).  I'll keep removing thickness until it stabilizes and it'll be the weight that it is. 

thanks for the help adb,cmb, and as well for the link Del.

[Del the cat]

I'll measure them again when i get home, they may be narrower.  I've been real careful keeping the thickness uniform, but i'll check that as well (was planning on that anyway).  The tips started out fairly square, maybe a hair thicker than width, now they are more rectangular (rounded), but still almost as thick as wide.  When i brace it, i can see and feel the tips move side to side (and the string follows) when i slightly move the bow side to side.

Well don't move the bow side to side... you'll just encourage it to missbehave
My bows all bend sideways, if I bend 'em sideways
Del

[mikekeswick]

Unless you are going for crazy weight the tips needn't be thicker than 7/16th, even less. Keep your width for now.
It's vital that the layout was plumb straight. Also that the profile is equally rounded.

[k-hat]

I'll measure them again when i get home, they may be narrower.  I've been real careful keeping the thickness uniform, but i'll check that as well (was planning on that anyway).  The tips started out fairly square, maybe a hair thicker than width, now they are more rectangular (rounded), but still almost as thick as wide.  When i brace it, i can see and feel the tips move side to side (and the string follows) when i slightly move the bow side to side.

Well don't move the bow side to side... you'll just encourage it to missbehave
My bows all bend sideways, if I bend 'em sideways
Del

Well i wasn't really doing it on purpose!  lol  Just kinda happened when i was bracing.  I left it alone today, but i'll check alignment on it again and make sure the string is tracking true.  As i said i'll keep whittling down the thickness until she's tame, and see what weight she falls at.  I think i'll still hit weight.  Lotsa lessons learned either way, the next one won't be such a pain.

Thanks Mike and Del

[Cameroo]

My advice would be to not worry about the measurements (thickness, width) of the tips.  Just finish tillering and leave the tips (the outer 8 inches or so) stiff until the end.  Once you have the bow tillered out to within a couple inches of full draw,  then start shaving away at the tips until they just start to bend. 

The measurements mean nothing once you are past floor tiller.  The bow decides what it's measurements will be

[k-hat]

Ok i'm getn'r tamed now and out to 23" of draw.  Would like a few more pairs of eyes to check on tiller:



The upper (left) looks a tad stiff in the outer, but i may leave well enough alone. BTW the center 4ish inches i've left stiff, mainly so there's more handle meat.  She's 68" ntn now, i may drop'r down to 67 or 66 to pick up a few pounds.

[Del the cat]

Depends what sort of tiller shape you want.
I think the outer thirds could flex more, and if you want full compass, the centre (middle third) could flex a whisker.
Just noticed the strings seems to be attached halfway donw the limb! (OK a sight exag')
Right looks a bit stiffer than left.
It's hardy going to be a longbow if you reduce it to 66" !
Del

[Joec123able]

What's up with the extra lenth on the tips ?? I think you need, like del the cat said, to take wood from the outer thirds on both limbs