Concealed handguns for teachers

[Gordon]

Police officers are trained to avoid harming innocents in a gun fight. I would expect the same of anyone who is carrying a gun for the purpose of protecting the public. Naturally that requires a good deal of training, skill and discipline. There are other ways that an untrained teacher can assist in such situations - like alerting authorities, keeping the kids calm and seeking ways to shuttle the kids to safety, etc. Firing a gun at the first thing that moves isn't always going to be helpful.

[criveraville]

This is my opinion and not meant as a jab at anyone.

I'm a kindergarten teacher. My wife teaches 2nd grade. We are a hall apart. After Connecticut we had the conversation, "what if we were both killed?"

Unfortunately innocent children and teachers (mostly women) have been targeted by mentally social outcast and social paths.. That's just a fact. Plain and simple. It's happened time and time again. Most school shootings (the killing of teachers and students) happens in a matter of JUST a minutes. That's it. Two or three minutes and the media blast THE WORST SCHOOL SHOOTING TO DATE..

I am certainly EXHAUSTED of hearing that teachers shouldn't carry arms, teachers must not carry arms, that this or that can happen.. That doing this or that is better.

Really? I agree with it.. I SHOULDN'T have to carry a weapon as a kindergarten teacher, but I certainly will to defend first and for most my students, my bride, my colleagues and my self. 

In my opinion the old cliche, "if we don't learn from history; history repeats itself.. As far as innocent children and teachers being murdered at the hands of lunatics has repeated and repeated itself with little to no action taken to change that and finally make changes to protect children and teachers. ONLY after the Connecticut shooting are school districts making changes. Positive changes and amending their district rules to allow teachers to carry concealed weapons.

I have three children at three different schools. I would feel much safer and comforted if I knew teachers on their campuses were armed. Lock down drill means this: you lock your door, turn the light off, crouch down like an animal with your students and wait for your fate if the unthinkable happens.

As far as I'm concerned "lock down" has never been and never will be an effective means of preserving the lives of children or teachers at the hands of a maniac living out a violent video game on an elementary campus.

Cipriano

[H Rhodes]

There are no easy answers for the politicians, rule makers, and administrators that are trying to figure out the best way to deal with active killers.   I saw a great analogy the other day - this man asserted that all humanity was divided into WOLVES, SHEEP, AND SHEEPDOGS.  Once you decide which category you fit into, its pretty clear what your role is going to be.  The wolves shed innocent blood.  Sheepdogs fight the wolves off.  The sheep sit around bleeting for help.  None of the three understand each other. I have followed this post with interest and I wish I could shed some light on what we should do as a society.  I am not coming up with anything.  I go through life trying to be polite to my fellow man, but I am armed.  I am a father, a husband, a police officer, and when the bleeting starts, you can bet your ass I am coming.  I think that all the sheepdogs out there, regardless of your line of work, need to realize that the only thing that stops these animals is someone who will fight back.  I would rather be tried by 12 than carried by 6.

[vinemaplebows]

Police officers are trained to avoid harming innocents in a gun fight. I would expect the same of anyone who is carrying a gun for the purpose of protecting the public. Naturally that requires a good deal of training, skill and discipline. There are other ways that an untrained teacher can assist in such situations - like alerting authorities, keeping the kids calm and seeking ways to shuttle the kids to safety, etc. Firing a gun at the first thing that moves isn't always going to be helpful.

Really?? Seems they just settled a lawsuit in California with two ladies that were shot because they "thought" they were shooting at the crazed ex-cop that killed himself recently. I am refering to the ex-cop that went nuts and started shooting his own.

Also off subject... how many people are injured in high speed chases over stolen cars when they have a chopper (or several) over head just so they can stop a car...it is down right stupid...you can run from a car, but a chopper come on! Let the idiot run out of gas and go scoop him up! I will never understand it! I don't blame the officers, BUT I do blame the department heads.....chases are NOT in the publics best interest. Training should include appropriate and rationalized ways of dealing with things that does not risk the innocent bystander.

I believe teachers SHOULD go into a class that is safe for them and their students. With appropriate training (police training) they could make the SAME decision any "REASONABLE" person/ officer can make. Cops are people too, and having a cop in the school makes the school no safer than one armed with teachers......My question is....does the people that want to carry the gun have the mental ability to kill.....or kill a child, if need be?? Lots of guys talk tough but when the sh#t hits the fan they freeze! The hell with pistols a shotgun in a lock box is the way to go!

VMB

[H Rhodes]

I am not sure the ratio of law enforcement officers/citizens....  I bet it is somewhere around 1 for ever 6 or 8 thousand people.  The blue line is terribly thin.   Cops get there right on time to save the day every now and then.... but it is the exception to the rule.  We are usually woefully late.  I think people should face reality and know that they need to learn to protect themselves and their loved ones, until the calvary arrives.   Finding understanding between the different viewpoints on this issue reaffirms my belief in the above stated three categories.  Our training has changed since the awful lessons of Columbine.  We are taught to get to the active killer as soon as possible and engage the suspect - put some rounds into them.  Even the politicians see that that is the only thing that stops them.  From my viewpoint, I don't care if the janitor, a teacher, the principle or the Avon lady, is carrying.  As long as they make the child killing stop, I don't care who makes it happen. Of course, I am not advocating anything....  People in my profession aren't supposed to give legal advice or God forbid, incite anyone to break the law, but I still have my opinions.   Fight back you sheepdogs!

[Gordon]

VM, even with training police officers sometimes make mistakes. Now consider the possibilties when a shooter doesn't have the benefit of such training...

If you are going to carry a gun for the purpose of protecting the public then then you have an obligation to learn how to execute that responsibility properly. Most of the teachers that I know (and I know a lot) simply don't have the time or inclination for that kind of training - give them a handgun in a crowded and chaotic classroom and they are as likely to shoot a student as a bad guy. If we believe that putting guns in classrooms is the answer then we should allocate money to train and hire more police officers for that purpose. It's not rocket science, it's a matter of priorities.

[JW_Halverson]

"We regret to inform you that your child and 28 others died today in a school shooting when no one was allowed to act in their defense."

"Why not? I don't understand it, when so many school shootings ended when the shooter killed themselves when they were confronted by an armed person?!?!"

[Buckeye Guy]

I am not sure where some of you live , but around here the Law enforcement folks are not trained anywhere near to all the idealistic ways you seem to think yours are !!
The cold hard facts are that in this county if you are going to be accidentally shot the odds are far and away that the trigger will have been pulled accidentally by a Law enforcement officer !
And that is not because the other folks do not have guns ,I can not think of one home in this county that does not have multiple guns in it !
I stand behind you Cip and would be honored to enter a school shooting situation with you being armed even if you had no more training than just being brought up right by your folks !!
Folks like Cip are what make this the greatest country in the world !
Stand up and do what is right no matter how hard or what it costs !!

[Gordon]

Okay how about this: "We regret to inform you that your child died today because her teacher shot her after mistaking her for an intruder"

I don't know where you live Guy, but I shoot at facility that is used for training law enforcement officers and they appear to receive very good training. And the claim that most accidental gun shot wounds/deaths in the US are caused by police officers is nonsense.

What's wrong with insisting that the people who we trust with protecting our most valuable possesions receive adequate training? I don't get it...

[vinemaplebows]

VM, even with training police officers sometimes make mistakes. Now consider the possibilties when a shooter doesn't have the benefit of such training...

If you are going to carry a gun for the purpose of protecting the public then then you have an obligation to learn how to execute that responsibility properly. Most of the teachers that I know (and I know a lot) simply don't have the time or inclination for that kind of training - give them a handgun in a crowded and chaotic classroom and they are as likely to shoot a student as a bad guy. If we believe that putting guns in classrooms is the answer then we should allocate money to train and hire more police officers for that purpose. It's not rocket science, it's a matter of priorities.

Gordon,

                  I don't know if you read all I wrote, BUT I clearly agree with you on mandatory training. Whether or not a teacher would accidently shoot a student has merit, BUT if my child was close enough to a active intruding shooter and a teacher trying to save lives accidently shot my child I would be pissed, but not at a hero trying to protect his/her flock. There is a reasonable assumption that the shooter would kill my child anyway! Like in every war there are casualities, but what if they save 20 lives in the process.....the police can guartee no more, plus they have to respond! Every WAR has losses WE all hope it is not ours......the 20 other parents would be more than gratefull I would think....don't you?

VMB
VMB

[Gordon]

VMB, only my first sentence of my previous post related to you directly. The remaining comments were directed at others on this thread. That said, your argument has merit if you assume that most situations are such that your child dying is inevitable if a gun is not fired in resistance.  I think that is a HUGE assumption – an intruder might not be armed, an intruder may actually not be intent on killing, an intruder may not be an intruder at all. The possibilities are endless and require training to properly evaluate in the seconds one has to make a decision whether to deploy deadly force. If a mentally ill individual entered my daughter’s classroom with a water pistol and my daughter was accidently shot by her teacher in the resulting melee I too would be pissed, but the target of my ire would be rightfully at the school district for not providing adequate training to their armed staff to recognize the difference.  Of course you are correct that sometimes casualties are unavoidable, but those are not the kind of casualties I am talking about here.

[vinemaplebows]

VMB, only my first sentence of my previous post related to you directly. The remaining comments were directed at others on this thread. That said, your argument has merit if you assume that most situations are such that your child dying is inevitable if a gun is not fired in resistance.  I think that is a HUGE assumption – an intruder might not be armed, an intruder may actually not be intent on killing, an intruder may not be an intruder at all. The possibilities are endless and require training to properly evaluate in the seconds one has to make a decision whether to deploy deadly force. If a mentally ill individual entered my daughter’s classroom with a water pistol and my daughter was accidently shot by her teacher in the resulting melee I too would be pissed, but the target of my ire would be rightfully at the school district for not providing adequate training to their armed staff to recognize the difference.  Of course you are correct that sometimes casualties are unavoidable, but those are not the kind of casualties I am talking about here.

Gordon,
                     I guess you don't think when a officer "feels" that their life is in danger they don't reach for their gun first, rather then later....I PERSONALLY have experienced this at my front door in the middle of the night when a police chase ended in my yard. I opened my front door to see what was going on and had a gun pointed at me.

                   Whether it be those cops, pointing the gun at me, or a trained teacher at a ACTIVE shooter....I think 99.9% of people don't pull the trigger because of legal issues in the back of their minds. I think anyone..... cops/responsible citizens/teachers would have to REALLY believe a life were on the line to pull the trigger...... of course there's going to be that .1% that would at a drop of a hat, pull the trigger......but if you are worried about that, don't drive, your chances of being killed in a car is much higher I would think.

Very interesting conversation.


VMB

[sleek]

I see a few problems in this discussion that reflect the real issues we have. I am going to do my best to explain my thoughts without sending the wrong message. 

School shooting happen and this is terrible. Whats worse is that it takes a bad thing to happen many times before solutions are found. Here we are with unprotected targets. We need to protect them. So we arm up the last line of defense, the teachers, then work our way backwards to the first line, ( some would say its mental health, other gun control ) but I say its the front door. If schools were built like a base, checked in gates with guards, no shooter shall enter.

There are other options, but this is a loose idea. Stop the guy from entering the building, you stop the need for armed teachers. Prisons, military bases, and embassies are the most secure spots on earth. Why shouldnt we follow that model and add to that schools? Follow the model of the military. A car/bus drop off point, where children go around the corner of a brick wall out of site instantly, an armed guard or two at the entrance, maybe one in a tower, children are then taken by teachers to the main building where they go through scanners, into the building.

Its terrible to think of that, but, its worse to deny the fact that this would be a solution. Of course there are going to be problems with this idea, but the general idea would work. I cant think of all problems and their solutions, unfortunately...

[Olanigw (Pekane)]

Sleek, we are not in a war zone, we have a few seriously ill people that crave infamy.  Making our schools into prisons will impact the mental health and wellness of our children in ways we can't possibly begin to understand.  Kids don't feel safe in a concrete box, they feel trapped like rats.  You teach them that the outside world is a terrible, monstrous place.  Even worse, you teach them that the way to deal with fear is to hide from it and hope the monsters don't find them.

[Buffalogobbler]

Sleek,
You got it right !
Stop them from entering the building, or at least try to.
The idea that the only way to protect children is with gun battles inside classrooms is off the mark.
It has been pointed out by those advocating arming teachers that these crazy shooters always kill themselves when confronted by armed resistance,yet they argue that putting an armed guard at the door is a bad idea.
Which is more tramatizing for children,a bloody gun battle inside a classroom, or a secure building with a guard that stop's a shooter at the door?
At Sandy Hook the nut walked right up to the front door carrying an AR.
What would be the best way to stop him?
Armed teachers in the classroom?
Or an armed guard at the door?

Kevin