Just Busted Another One!!%#%$##

[JackCrafty]

If a new guy wanted to make a flat bow, what would you recommend?

Make the bow 1" wide and if it breaks make the next one wider.

Or, make the bow 2" wide and if it doesn't take any set, make it more narrow until you start getting a little set, and then stop.

Or, make the bow as wide as I make mine, and get some new wood if it breaks.

 

[JackCrafty]

Eastern, this banter is for your benefit.  Personally, I like a good argument.  But the decision is up to you.

I don't disagree with the idea that your tillering or the wood may be preventing you from making a bow with the wood you have.... so if you take that advice, you will be fine.

Of course, if you take my advice, you'll break fewer bows.  IMHO.   

[Easternarcher]

Dang boys...didn't mean to start a feud!
I've made several which and boo backed osage bows that were narrowed, like 1 3/8".
Ipe bows down to 1 1/8th. got a which/ipe elb thats a hair less than 1 inch wide too...lighter draw of course.

I dunno...it just seems like there was bad wood to start since the bow was barely bending at the failure moment. I actually was happy with the curves at that point....didn't see anything wrong. and like I said, I've made a few already, so I've been down the road before.....I wasn't expecting catastrophic failure at 4 inches of bend!

[adb]

If a new guy wanted to make a flat bow, what would you recommend?

Make the bow 1" wide and if it breaks make the next one wider.

Or, make the bow 2" wide and if it doesn't take any set, make it more narrow until you start getting a little set, and then stop.

Or, make the bow as wide as I make mine, and get some new wood if it breaks.

 

Your simple 'solution' of "just make it wider" is rubbish. Bit more to it than that. Design, wood and tiller must all match... not just make it wider if it breaks. General statements like this rarely solve problems.

Ex: if I'm making a 72" ntn hickory backed osage ELB, with grip 1.25" wide tapering evenly to 1/2" tips, and I tiller it  full compass and it breaks, making it wider will not help. The wood combo is sound, the design is good, and the tiller would be correct. Fault can only be with the wood itself, or the tillering.

[JackCrafty]

If I'm making a 72" ntn hickory backed osage ELB, with grip 1.25" wide tapering evenly to 1/2" tips, and I tiller it  full compass and it breaks, making it wider will not help.

If you say so.   

No point in arguing the particulars when basic concepts are in question here.

[adb]

You missed the important sentences in the post. Taking one part of a response out of context may work to suit your purpose, but it doesn't tell the whole story.

My point exactly... no point in arguing the particulars when basic concepts are in question.

[JackCrafty]

Fault can only be with the wood itself, or the tillering.

This part is wrong, obviously.  Fault can also be with the design.  Fault can also be with the glue.  Fault can also be with an excessive difference in the compression and tension values of the different woods, e.g. the hickory may be fine and have average strength but the osage is especially strong in compression.  I could go on, but let's take one thing at a time.  Talking about width opens up the discussion to possible changes in the design in order to prevent breakage.  The idea of trying to fit the wood to the design is the reverse of what I would do.  That's my position.

[adb]

There again, you're taking a single sentence out of context. The bow I gave as an example is of sound design. Agreed? (and glue-up is part of the design). Hickory and osage are one of the best matched woods there is. It's just one example, and there are obviously many many more.
If the bow fails (and the wood and design are compatible as in this case), it's either a fault in the material, or a mistake by the maker... period.

Your generalised statement of 'just make it wider' is not good advice. I think we basically agree... design, material and manufacture are ALL vital.

I don't know about you, but I pick a piece of wood(s) and then match the design to it, optimising it's best qualities. It's bad practice to force wood into designs it does not excel at. That is a design failure.

[JackCrafty]

The bow I gave as an example is of sound design. Agreed?

Well no, not agreed.  We are talking about a flat bow.  The ELB design is not relevant to this discussion and therefore not sound on that basis.  (Sorry, for those who think I've taken the sentence out of context, please scroll up to see the sentence in context... and look at all the other things we've discussed as well. )

Hickory and osage are one of the best matched woods there is.

Yes, I agree.  But I must also mention that this combination didn't work well for Easternarcher in this case.

Your generalised statement of 'just make it wider' is not good advice.

Show me where I said "Just make it wider". You didn't take that one out of context, I'll give you that.  You made it up.

I don't know about you, but I pick a piece of wood(s) and then match the design to it, optimising it's best qualities.

Where do you think designs come from?  They come from taking the piece of wood and then shaping it so it performs well.  Then the maker stands back and says, "This is a good design for this wood".  Then the next guy takes the design and says, "I have some of that wood, if I choose that design I will be optimizing the wood's properties!".  Then proceeds to break the bow because the wood is not exaclty the same as the first piece of wood.

(If you read that, I admire your patience).

I think we basically agree... design, material and manufacture are ALL vital.

Yes, we agree on that.  Drat.

[adb]

Good grief.

[adb]

Breaks on the tension side of the wood break cleanly.  The splintering occurs in the neutral plane area.

That limb was overstressed.  Try making the limbs wider.

[Pappy]

  Don't know if making it wider would have helped,maybe  but I still say in this case it was dry rotted wood.
   Pappy

[ohma2]

agree with pappy here that wood sure looks suspicous to me, to dry almost pithy looking.

[JackCrafty]

"Try making it wider" is not "Just make it wider".

And, since I'm outnumbered, I'll say this:  now it's a fair fight.   

[JackCrafty]

This is fun but I will bow out now.  I'll switch to lurker mode.  Keep us posted on your next attempt, Eastern.