Rawhide/Hickory Backing Questions

[Christian Soldier]

I've been looking into rawhide backing some recently for my next black walnut bow. I've also developed a few questions that should be pretty easy to answer but very helpfull to me. 

1. In what stage of building the bow do you apply the backing (barely bending, stiff, fully tillered)?

2. How do you splice two pieces of rawhide together to stretch the length of the bow?

3. How thin/thick does the rawhide need to be and what's the best way to thin it?

4. What glue is best? Will hide glue work?

5. How do you trim the excess rawhide?

That's all for now. Thanks!


Dan

[Pappy]

1 Right after floor tiller.
2 In the middle of the handle.
3 Thin as possible
4 TB3 and yes hide glue will work,just takes longer to cure.
5 I use a fine file at a slight angle,just file till I see wood and it will peal right off,the sand the edge smooth.
 Hope this helps. Be sure to soak it first to get it soft then dry off excess water.
you can wrap it with a ace bandage if you like but be sure to keep all the air bubbles out from under it. If I wrap and am using TB3 I only leave it wrapped for a few hours until it set then take it off and work down the limb with my thumb from center out to push out any air. Simple.
   Pappy

[crwjr]

I tried the raw hide dog bone!!! I let it soak for 48hrs and could get it flattened out. It wanted to stay in a rolled shape. So I gave up and my dogs got a new chew toy (pre softened lol). My next step is either sinew or commercial raw hide meant for backing! Good luck to ya. 

[Pappy]

Never tried one of them,I have heard of others that have and I guess it worked,I use deer rawhide I make ,it's thin and easier to use than even cow rawhide. I have heard goat is really good also,Even thinner.
   Pappy

[lostarrow]

 I use deer rawhide, but I hear that goat works great as well. Strong and thin. If you can find a supplier for traditional drums ,the usually have hides for the heads. If you need to thin ,you can use coarse sandpaper on a block, over a flat surface. I used hide glue and foun it worked better without wetting. If it's thin enough and "broken" over the sharp edge of a hardwood board, it will be supple enough that when you soak the hide glue to the back of it ,and size the bow itself, the moisture in the glue saturates the hide and lays it flat and smooth when you heat it with an Iron. I found if you soak the hide first with this method ,the steam swells the hide and makes it shrink away .  If you use TBII you will need to soak it to get it flexable enough to lay flat. With the Hide glue and heat method I was done in about 45mins and trimming with a razor 1/2hr later . Tillering when the glue gets hard (I believe I backed it one evening ,left the whole next day and tillered the following day. Dry winter climate here)

[Christian Soldier]

Thanks Pappy!

Lostarrow, I think I will try your method because I have a good bit of hid glue and I don't get to use it very often.   

Just so I'm clear, get the rawhide thin and flexible (Its fairly thick now so its going to take some elbow grease and maybe a power sander ). Then saturate the back of the bow with hide glue, place rawhide on top (without soaking or with soaking in hide glue?), and heat/flatten it with an Iron. What exactly do you mean by 'shrink away'?
Finish by wraping it and waiting for it to dry before triming the edge. Correct?

Another question.

3b. Do you splice the same way you would with splicing billets together (with triangles)? Or do you overlap them, or is there just some other way I'm missing here?

Again, thanks for the help guys. This is my first backed bow so I'm treading in some new waters here and I don't want to ruin another BW stave. 

[richardzane]

all good questions here...i'm going to be paying attention

[lostarrow]

I size the  bow and the hide  (both mating surfaces) with glue. Doesn't matter if it gels or has a lump or two, but the smoother the easier it will be .
   Try hand sanding first.
   Your hide should already be stretched from the drying process,so no real need to stretch it on the bow .
   If you soak it  first, it will try to shrink  away on you.
   Start in the middle and work a section at a time 4-6"
   Iron should be on a low setting. If it sizzles water ,it's too hot.
   The heat will reactivate the glue,and while it's still hot,I squeegee the hide on using a small section of polished brass bar.
   Keep a little cup of water on hand to lubricate the bar if necessary. use sparingly
    The glue will ooze out of the edges and the hide should get transparent. You can see the grain through it.
     Don't push too hard and starve the joint of glue.
     The hide can be nicely worked into nooks and crannies.and in an hour or so you can slice off the excess with a razor blade.or sharp knife.
     Be sure to cut towards the wood so you don't lift the hide.
     Save the final sanding /filing until the glue is hard (cured)
    No need to touch the back if everything was prepared well. you should now have a nice burnished /glossy finished hide on your bow.
    This will NOT be waterproof . cover it with a snake skin, cherry or birch bark ,or lots of a good water tight finish. I used Shelac. Natural,primitive,inexpensive, good colour and found to be the most water resistant by wooden boat magazine!I'm not going to argue.  I prefer the "French polish" method of applying it . (youtube)
 This method of applying the hide is the same as Hammer veneering  in cabinetry. You can youtube that as well to get some good visuals on glue consistency etc.  There is a  Bowyer of renown that uses this technique, but I can't remember his name. Some refer to it as his technique but that just somehow doesn't sit right with me as it's been  in use for hundreds of years ,not unlike what is now being called the "Perry reflex".
  Finished backing should be cured within a couple of days to be safe.

[DuBois]

I ordered a goat rawhide from Moscow hide and fur several months back and it was really thin and somewhat translucent already. I was very happy with it. I have used dog bones on the first couple I did and it worked alright but by the time it is soaked and scraped clean and flat...it just seamed smarter for me to try buying online. Large goat was about $40 and has enough for 3-5 bows maybe.

[lostarrow]

Good point DuBois. Some of the rawhide bone are pig hide or are a little closer to the rotten side as well. Have to be discerning on quality vs. cost.

[Christian Soldier]

Allright, It turns out I only have enough Rawhide for a shortbow so I'll keep ahold of this thread when I do that one.

However, I don't have enough for the BW bow I'd like to use it on so I think I'm going to go with some kind of hickory backing.

I found this article http://www.murraygaskins.com/hick-back.html but I still have a few questions.

6. How do you get the stave and backing to merge perfectly if either has knots?

7. Is a Bandsaw mandatory or can you use hand tools?

8. What's an Ideal thickness for a hickory backing?

9. Is it okay to sever rings on the back of the stave in order for it to mate better with the backing?

10. Can you use the outer ring of the hickory for the back and just flatten the one side to match the stave?

Again, thank you very much for taking the time to answer my questions!


Dan

[DarkSoul]

Backing a bow with flexible rawhide is COMPLETELY different from backing a bow with stiff wood. A hickory backing requires a 100% dead flat surface of both the core/belly and the hickory back. To reach that flat surface, you will inevitably sever the grain, but you need to limit this as much as possible.

6. A hickory backing must be free of knots in all bending sections. A small (less than 1/4") knot in the stiff handle area is OK.

7. No, you can use hand tool, but 100% dead flat surfaces are mandatory. This might take five hours with hand tools, but it's the end result that matters.

8. Depends, but around 1/8" final thickness is fine. Tapering from 1/4"  at the handle to 1/8" at the tips is fine as well.

9. That is basically inevitable.

10. I'm not sure I understand your question. Hickory has usable wood throughout the tree. No need to look for one specific ring. Just plane the surface flat. Many people use a straight grained board, either flat-, rift- or quartersawn, and rip a thin slat from it. Much easier than processing a split tree stave to a flat backing.

[Christian Soldier]

For #10 I was going to use a split tree stave if that clears things up.

Thanks for the answers!

After some consideration, I might do the hickory backing later on another bow and just buy some Rawhide from Echo. It seems like a good idea to start with an easier/more simple backing for my first backed bow. 

Thanks again.

[steve b.]

Dean Torges

[lostarrow]

Thanks Steveb ! That's the guy.Great bowyer ,and I'm not taking anything away from him, just would prefer to call it the method he uses as opposed to the "Dean Torges"  method. I believe the guys in Europe are using the same method ( as obseved on the "other " site) and I don't think they learned it from this side of the pond , or at any recent date. That's just me.