Author Topic: Hawthorn bow questions...  (Read 4249 times)

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Offline Cloudfeather

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Hawthorn bow questions...
« on: April 01, 2013, 07:33:15 pm »
I've got a pretty good piece of hawthorn that should make a bow. I'm curious as to whether I should leave sapwood, chase a ring, etc. Also, I'm thinking about 62-64" and about 50-55#@27. Any suggestions?

Offline bow101

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Re: Hawthorn bow questions...
« Reply #1 on: April 01, 2013, 08:41:03 pm »
As far as I know Hawthorn is diffuse pourous, if true chasing a ring is a waste of time. Could leave the sapwood.
"The privilege of a lifetime is being who you are."  Joseph Campbell

Offline vinemaplebows

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Re: Hawthorn bow questions...
« Reply #2 on: April 01, 2013, 08:53:54 pm »
Remove the bark, you have your back. ;)
Debating is an intellectual exchange of differing views...with no winners.

Offline bow101

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Re: Hawthorn bow questions...
« Reply #3 on: April 01, 2013, 08:59:36 pm »
Hey viner....! have ya built a lot of Vinemaple bows.?  could you direct me to some of your builds and or photos.  May get round to building a few myself whenver i get the ambition to go looking for some.
cheers,   ;)
"The privilege of a lifetime is being who you are."  Joseph Campbell

Offline DarkSoul

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Re: Hawthorn bow questions...
« Reply #4 on: April 02, 2013, 06:40:13 am »
Hawthorn doesn't have sapwood and heartwood; it's all white throughout and could be considered a whitewood. Since it is diffuse porous, it is nearly impossible to ring chase. Whatever you do, keep the wood directly underneath the bark unharmed! Split, remove the bark and make sure the wood remains intact to function as the back of the bow.

The wood can be tricky to dry. Did you dry it already or is it still green?
"Sonuit contento nervus ab arcu."
Ovid, Metamorphoses VI-286

Offline bow101

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Re: Hawthorn bow questions...
« Reply #5 on: April 02, 2013, 06:14:06 pm »
The wood can be tricky to dry. Did you dry it already or is it still green?

What is your best opinion on drying Hawthorn. I have some drying now, bark left on with sealed ends sitting outside in a dry, dark garden shed.
"The privilege of a lifetime is being who you are."  Joseph Campbell

Offline DarkSoul

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Re: Hawthorn bow questions...
« Reply #6 on: April 02, 2013, 06:40:28 pm »
I'm not sure, since I've never worked with the wood. But I remember reading various tips on both PaleoPlanet and Primitive Archer. Run a search for "hawthorn" or even "hawthorne". I'm sure you should be able to dig up something useful. If I remember correctly, not everyone has had difficulty with drying the wood. But some have reported it to be somewhat difficult, but not impossible.

With most 'difficult to dry' woods, slow is better. Sealing the ends and slowly letting it air dry with little air movement, high humidity and low temperature are good options. So your set up sounds good to me. Leaving the bark on might pose problems later on, when it could be difficult to remove without damaging the wood underneath. if you store the wood outside in a shed, you might run a risk of wood wasps and grubs. Either spray with insect repellent or remove the bark and seal the back of the bow with something like shellac.
"Sonuit contento nervus ab arcu."
Ovid, Metamorphoses VI-286

blackhawk

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Re: Hawthorn bow questions...
« Reply #7 on: April 02, 2013, 06:47:19 pm »
I've messed with the stuff,and I I'd suggest sealing well,and strapping it down if you reduce some of it down because it likes to warp n twist

Offline Cloudfeather

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Re: Hawthorn bow questions...
« Reply #8 on: April 02, 2013, 08:52:00 pm »
It's about 2 1/2" diameter, bark on and ends sealed. Been curing for about a month.

Offline DavidV

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Re: Hawthorn bow questions...
« Reply #9 on: April 02, 2013, 09:20:18 pm »
"Hawthorn doesn't have sapwood and heartwood; it's all white throughout and could be considered a whitewood. Since it is diffuse porous, it is nearly impossible to ring chase. Whatever you do, keep the wood directly underneath the bark unharmed! Split, remove the bark and make sure the wood remains intact to function as the back of the bow."

Where has this idea come from? It's not the first time I've heard this. All woods have a heartwood and sapwood. Some have bigger ones than others, some don't get heartwood untill their over 10" in diamter. Bowyers are the only people that use the term whitewood and heartwood, and it isn't entirely correct.
Springfield, MO

Offline vinemaplebows

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Re: Hawthorn bow questions...
« Reply #10 on: April 02, 2013, 10:42:35 pm »
Depends on species and how old the wood is. Black hawthorn (old enough) does have a heartwood. This is about as late as I personally would cut hawthorn, unless you know how to dry it without excessive cracking (it is prone) I have my method of curing but everyone has dirfferent results with different methods. :)


VMB
Debating is an intellectual exchange of differing views...with no winners.

Offline DarkSoul

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Re: Hawthorn bow questions...
« Reply #11 on: April 03, 2013, 05:28:25 am »
"Hawthorn doesn't have sapwood and heartwood; it's all white throughout and could be considered a whitewood. Since it is diffuse porous, it is nearly impossible to ring chase. Whatever you do, keep the wood directly underneath the bark unharmed! Split, remove the bark and make sure the wood remains intact to function as the back of the bow."

Where has this idea come from? It's not the first time I've heard this. All woods have a heartwood and sapwood. Some have bigger ones than others, some don't get heartwood untill their over 10" in diamter. Bowyers are the only people that use the term whitewood and heartwood, and it isn't entirely correct.

This statement requires some clarification.

I agree that the term 'whitewood' is very vague, and only used by bowyers. I wonder who came up with the term? I don't like the term either, since there seems to be no exact definition, but we use the term so often, we get accustomed to it.
The term 'heartwood' (as well as sapwood) are used globally and are well accepted with clear definitions.

I agree that all woods contain both sapwood and heartwood. I should have said "Hawthorn doesn't have visually distinct sapwood and heartwood". It does have both sapwood and heartwood, but we cannot distinguisih the two visually. The color is the same throughout the log and we would need a microscope to see the difference between the living sapwood and the dead heartwood. The confusion starts with the phenomenon "false heartwood". I would strongly invite you to google that term. It is widely used in wood trade and is distinctly different to heartwood. Hawthorn (as well as ash, hickory, beech, poplar and willow) has false heartwood. The color of this false heartwood does not overlap with the occurence of the actual heartwood. False heartwood is always heartwood, but not all heartwood of a log is transformed to false heartwood. The latter is often deteriorated to some degree by fungus, rot or deposition of certain substances.

I quote this piece of scientific literature, which very nicely describes the way it works.
Quote
The wood quality of different broadleaf species is defined according to their “natural” properties
including the color of the wood. Mostly, the wood color is uniform from the pith to the cambium.
However, for individuals, parts of the wood extending from the pith can be dark (red, brown, grey or
black). Darkly colored wood is normal in some species [e.g., elm (Ulmus sp.); oak (Quercus sp.);
sweet chestnut (Castania sativa L.); black walnut (Juglans regia L.)] and not classified as false
heartwood. Wood discoloration has been reported for some broadleaved species: poplars [4], beech,
(Fagus sylvatica L.) [5], wild cherry (Prunus avium L.) [6], paper birch (Betula papyrifera Marsh.) [7],
silver birch (Betula pendula Roth) [8] and ash (Fraxinus excelsior L.) [9].
(Reference: "Frequency of False Heartwood of Stems of Poplar Growing on Farmland in Sweden", Tord Johansson and Birger Hjelm)

I hope this removes some of the confusion. For us bowyers, this may not be too relevant, but still interesting. All we need to know, is that false heartwood is generally undesirable in bows, while heartwood is generally better than sapwood. But not all species produces false heartwood, nor can we predict (before cutting the tree) how big the false heartwood will be.
"Sonuit contento nervus ab arcu."
Ovid, Metamorphoses VI-286

mikekeswick

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Re: Hawthorn bow questions...
« Reply #12 on: April 03, 2013, 07:01:58 am »
Hawthorn will make a good bow if you are lucky enough to find a good piece. It is fairly elastic and obviously dense. It responds very well to heat treating but make absolutely sure the wood is well dried first or else it will check. If the back is clean then trap it lightly.
As for drying it's safest with the bark on but it's a bugger to get off once dried. I've dried it fairly quickly by reducing to bow dimensions and then sealing the back/ends with pva glue.

Offline Zion

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Re: Hawthorn bow questions...
« Reply #13 on: April 03, 2013, 12:58:41 pm »
yeah exactly what Blackhawk said. Some pieces twist real bad. and they'll check on the belly and twisting around the sides and to the back if you don't seal the roughed out side. i would suggest clamping each tip to a board, belly facing up, and put some kind of block in the middle to let it dry straight and with reflex. Great wood.
The secret of life is learning to make your own luck.

Offline bow101

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Re: Hawthorn bow questions...
« Reply #14 on: April 03, 2013, 03:00:04 pm »
yeah exactly what Blackhawk said. Some pieces twist real bad. and they'll check on the belly and twisting around the sides and to the back if you don't seal the roughed out side. i would suggest clamping each tip to a board, belly facing up, and put some kind of block in the middle to let it dry straight and with reflex. Great wood.

Lol.....funny how much stuff you learn about wood drying and other physical characteristics of wood spieces. I have to wait it out till late summer before I even consider shaping and tillering anything.
Oh well back to the drawing board, Think I'll do some more laminates, Wood is dry sitting in the lumber store.. :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
"The privilege of a lifetime is being who you are."  Joseph Campbell