Author Topic: In progress Roman manuballista - torsion arrow firing machine  (Read 81023 times)

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Offline Dane

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In progress Roman manuballista - torsion arrow firing machine
« on: October 20, 2007, 05:41:47 pm »
Hi everyone. I should have gotten this more along before posting, but I'm excited about it, and wanted you to see it, even though it has a long ways to go.

This is the spring frame and the stock for a small torsion spring arrow firing machine. What you are seeing is the spring frame, made of ash, and the stock. A slider will fit into the dovetail groove in the stock, and the four holes in the spring frame are going to have rope (I hope to make them sinew) springs. Two bow arms will be fitted into the springs, and the machine is spanned (drawn) back by leaning on a stomach rest that will be at the end of the stock, thereby pulling the slider back until I lock it with a bronze and iron trigger.

Part of this project is making bronze components. I have a bronze melting oven in progress, propane fired and capable of melting bronze at 2400 degrees (more or less, depending on the exact alloy used). The oven is small, and will weigh about 90 lbs. This manuballista will need a number of bronze plates for the top, sides, and front of the frame, and a few components of iron as welll.

You have to use a bit of imagination here. The stock will be much lower, but I just fitted it in the frame to give an idea of what it will look like what it is done. Also, the frame is only rough sanded, and the stock is only very rough planed so far.

As for how powerful this machine is going to be, I have no idea. We do know that one charactaristic of arrow firing machines is the very flat, fast trajectory, so it should make a bolt move very fast. And many factors go into these machines, such as moisture in the air, how much you crank torsion into the springs, etc. I can't recall anyone today making reconstructed seige engines using sinew or hair ropes. I want to make the rope springs from this from sinew, probably more expensive than I want, and difficult, but after this much work (I can't tell you how much time I put into it. Lots! Just learning to make mortise and tenion joints has been a journey). I also have to find a blacksmith to make hand forged iron nails for fitting the plates to the frame. The diameter of the springs will be 1 3/8", or possible a bit more, depending on how the spring washers come out. The bolts for this will be about 12.5" (my notes and drawings are in the shop in my now pretty worn "Boys Big Book of Machines of Death"). I will put this machine through all kinds of tests, chronograph, armor piercing, flight shooting, etc. and under field conditions (well, as close as I can come up with, in kit, with armor, after road marches, different weather conditions, etc).

I think it will be many months before I can actually show the finished weapon here, and will when I can. I probably should have waited, but hey, this place is about sharing.

Dane

PS Here is a link to an article with a photo of a reconstructed manuballista. Mine will be similar to this, but not exact for various reasons.

http://www.romanhideout.com/news/2005/20050224.asp

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Greenfield, Western Massachusetts

Offline Loki

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Re: In progress Roman manuballista - torsion arrow firing machine
« Reply #1 on: October 20, 2007, 06:14:47 pm »
Thats great Dane,cant wait to see the finished product! it will be the first engine i've seen with a sinew rope,i'm looking forward to the results.
Andy
Durham,England

Offline M-P

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Re: In progress Roman manuballista - torsion arrow firing machine
« Reply #2 on: October 20, 2007, 07:42:33 pm »
Cool project!  Good luck, and keep us posted.  Ron
"A man should make his own arrows."   Omaha proverb   

"There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves."    Will Rogers

Bikewer

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Re: In progress Roman manuballista - torsion arrow firing machine
« Reply #3 on: October 20, 2007, 10:03:34 pm »
Good luck with the project!   I know from watching some of that history channel stuff that attempts to build full-sized ballistae have been full of problems.   Trying to find suitable cordage for the skeins, and trying to keep the whole thing together!   
Should work better on the small scale.  One of my crossbow pages has a link to some Roman-era devices...I seem to have lost it....

Offline Gordon

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Re: In progress Roman manuballista - torsion arrow firing machine
« Reply #4 on: October 20, 2007, 10:22:52 pm »
Wow, I'm looking forward to seeing this project unfold!
Gordon

jamie

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Re: In progress Roman manuballista - torsion arrow firing machine
« Reply #5 on: October 20, 2007, 10:32:16 pm »
cool looking machine dane. must of been slow going routing out that dovetail in the ash. what happened with that other machine you were working on? peace

Offline wolfsire

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Re: In progress Roman manuballista - torsion arrow firing machine
« Reply #6 on: October 21, 2007, 03:27:28 am »
Im excited too!  But dont wait until it is done to post more, show the build along the way. :)
Steve in LV, NV

Offline Dane

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Re: In progress Roman manuballista - torsion arrow firing machine
« Reply #7 on: October 21, 2007, 07:22:21 am »
Thanks, everyone. Wolfsire, I will post pictures and comments as I continue toward completion, though it will be some time. Thanks for the kind words.

Jamie, the routing didn't take that long, especially considering I had never routed a dovetail groove before, :) I didn't get it dead on center, so I will plane down on side of the stock a bit to compensate. The larger machine is moving along nicely - frame nearly done, slider and stock done, and I am making the stand now. After all the work learning traditional jointry on this small machine, it is less daunting an task now. That one will have 4" springs, so more caution is needed. Once I do get it to trail stage, I will wear armor and face shield and hard hat. Just to be careful :)

Gordon, thanks.

Bikewer, that is true. The gigantic machine they tried to build a few years ago didn't work out so well. For everything we think we know, there is much that is educated guesswork and trial and error. I am guessing if they found a large machine as prefectly preserved as the little Xanian machine I am basing this manuballista on, things would go smoother for builders.

Loki, I knew you'd appreciate this project. Yeah, sinew ropes will be cool to make and use. Another ancient recommended rope is women's hair, but I doubt I could find that many women who would give up their locks for my toy, lol.
Greenfield, Western Massachusetts

Offline Dane

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Re: In progress Roman manuballista - torsion arrow firing machine
« Reply #8 on: October 21, 2007, 08:26:14 am »
Here are some shots of the frame taken the other day, before glueup but fitted together.

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Greenfield, Western Massachusetts

Offline DanaM

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Re: In progress Roman manuballista - torsion arrow firing machine
« Reply #9 on: October 21, 2007, 08:52:22 am »
Your a strange individual Dane  ;), of course I mean that in a nice way ;D
"Prosperity is a way of living and thinking, and not just money or things. Poverty is a way of living and thinking, and not just a lack of money or things."

Manistique, MI

Offline Dane

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Re: In progress Roman manuballista - torsion arrow firing machine
« Reply #10 on: October 21, 2007, 11:17:52 am »
Who wants to be normal, Dana? :) Meaning understoood.

Dane
Greenfield, Western Massachusetts

jamie

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Re: In progress Roman manuballista - torsion arrow firing machine
« Reply #11 on: October 21, 2007, 11:27:16 am »
if you finish them up before the next event definetly bring them down. also if you need anything for the project let me know. i had some hand forged nails , i'll have to find them. peace

Offline Dane

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Re: In progress Roman manuballista - torsion arrow firing machine
« Reply #12 on: October 21, 2007, 11:36:12 am »
Jamie, thanks much! Some hand forged nails would be awesome.

They will both be ready and tested before May. I will bring them down for certain.

Dane

BTW, got that photo disk, thanks! I just have to finish that article now, when I get a few hours time. And, the jacket with neolithic designs is fantastic. Your work is always great.
Greenfield, Western Massachusetts

Offline Pat B

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Re: In progress Roman manuballista - torsion arrow firing machine
« Reply #13 on: October 21, 2007, 12:44:12 pm »
This looks like a cool project, Dane. Looking forward to seeing your progress.   Pat
Make the most of all that comes and the least of all that goes!    Pat Brennan  Brevard, NC

Offline Dane

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Re: In progress Roman manuballista - torsion arrow firing machine
« Reply #14 on: October 21, 2007, 07:10:18 pm »
Pat, thanks. By the way, I read your latest article in PA - you looked great on horseback, and that bow was just beautiful.

Here is a little work I did just earlier today. I routed out the dovetail slot out of the same sized ash timber as the stock. It is far to massive as it stands. Now, I have to plane down both sides, rip the board in half a bit above the height I want the slider, and chisel in or route in the bolt groove once I establish final slider height.

Dane

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Greenfield, Western Massachusetts