Positive tiller guys, how much do you do? 1/8"? 1/4"?

[blackhawk]

When I first brace a bow I get my braced profile worked out with a positive tiller for starters...but after that its all about what it looks like at full draw,and how well balanced it is in the hand when drawn...and whatever it ends up when I'm done,whether it be positive,zero,or even slightly negative...then that's what it should be for that one bow,cus each will be different.

[toomanyknots]

I shoot for 1/8 but am happy with 3/16 ,didn't know it changed your arrow pass built hundereds and didn't know that. If anything my bottom get weaker over time,not much usually if I am careful braceing it.
   Pappy

Mine get weaker too. That's why I decided to use a more positive tiller.

EDIT: And from what I understand, I thought the main reason for positive tiller was placement of the arrow pass, and how it makes the bow asymmetrical? Although IMO even with a bow that is perfectly symmetrical, with the arrow pass exactly center, the bottom limb is still under more stress most of the time due to most peoples drawing technique, (drawing to the chin, the cheek, the eye, etc). Which, with myself, seems to put more stress on the bottom limb. Even though I guess I can't really explain why effectively. With such bows, I draw across the chest, and don't really use an anchor.

[Roy]

Well stated Chicken Hawk, I'm proud of ya son...

[PEARL DRUMS]

If your limb is noticabley weakening that quickly its not a matter of positive or negative tiller. Soemthing else is wrong in the tiller or design. Yes, all bows if shot will weaken over time, but neither of us own bows that old.

[Pappy]

Thats very true Chris but I have found in most cases if they look bad at brace they will look bad at full draw,not always but most of the time especially in a low or non character bow.  Bottom limbs may get a little more stress due to how a person shoots but from what I have seen it is mostly due to how they are braced. I make mostly symmetrical bows/anchor middle finger in the corner of my mouth and really don't have much problem with the tiller changing if I am using seasoned/dry wood. Shoot um for years with none to very little change. Maybe loose a little reflex but most times that is pretty even lose.      
   JonW "I guess when I start worrying about if my tiller matches the front profile"
     
     Pappy

[PEARL DRUMS]

Funny you should say that Pappy. I was just talking with Roy about a bow needing to look good at brace (most often) to look good at full draw. I couldnt agree more!

[Pat B]

Checking positive tiller at brace is a static test. When you draw a bow in your hand it becomes non-static(for lack of a better phrase). Doesn't that change the effects of what we are trying to find out about the bow?
  Chris Cade(mechslasher) a few years ago told me what he did with shorter, highly stressed recurve bows to keep the bottom limb from getting over stressed. He would just flip it over making the bottom limb the top limb. With a symetrical bow this is possible and I have used it on short bows and short recurves since with good results.
  I'm not tchnical enough and don't want to be so technical that it becomes a hassle for me. I make wood bows and my goal is to be as simple with my bow building but still make viable hunting weight bows. I see all the positive and negative tiller as part of the "FG" mentality that I have been getting away from since I decided to make my own wood bows. In a FG lam bow where everything is a given even before the glue up, I can see where finding positive tiller can be ffective and even practical but with selfbows where no two sticks are the same and each piece of wood is different it seems like over kill and it is not practical for my bow building effort. I just want to build wood bows that shoot well and that is something I learned how to do over the years and after many bows have been built. I believe in the KISS rule when it comes to building wood bows! 

[Pappy]

I want it simple also Pat,but are you saying you don't even check the brace tiller or care if it is even/pos. or neg. at brace ?  Flipping one over will surly work, But I don't shoot off my hand and hate makeing  grips, rather make another bow.  
   Pappy

[blackhawk]

Yup pappy n pearly....that's why I said I get my braced profile looking good for starters..cus in a lot of cases the tiller will be good at full draw. Lately I've been going more simple with how I tiller. Rarely do I use a tree anymore,and its basically just an aid to measure draw weight when done. I will floor tiller it till I can low brace it,and my experience and "feel" of how heavy the bow is and each limb is compared to each other allows me to get pretty dang close to a dead nuts tiller...and I usually only have a lil scraping to give me a good looking braced profile,and only 5-10 pounds left at the most to take off..if that. Then its just a matter of slowly inching it out in my hand exercising it,and keeping track of my braced profile as a guide to any changes happening in my limbs. No bs'ing...that long yew bow was tillered out on the floor...and when I braced it the profile was dead nuts..and as I exercised it down it looked great,and by the time I got it to full draw it was perfect and at the exact weight I wanted..I didn't have to do any adjustments...no joke or overexaggeration. Now I don't get em dead nuts everytime,but there awfully close to having a finished tiller. Usually just some tweaking needs done.  Tiller sticks n trees are overrated if you already know his to make wood bend well IMHO.

[toomanyknots]

If your limb is noticabley weakening that quickly its not a matter of positive or negative tiller. Soemthing else is wrong in the tiller or design. Yes, all bows if shot will weaken over time, but neither of us own bows that old.

I didn't say it was weakening quickly. This would be over the span of about a year of shooting or so. If you see something wrong with the tiller of my bows, your always welcome to point it out,  .

[PEARL DRUMS]

I dont think a bow should move at all in a year if its properly built and braced. I was thinking general use after 5,6 or even 7 years of shooting it. I didnt say your bows are tillered wrong, I wouldnt know if they where. A given bow, in general, shouldnt take on set that quickly if its tillered well, built well and braced correctley. The few bows I have made that "caved in" as I call it had design issues, and or tiller issues. Most have been fixed with reheating and retillering, as most of the worked wood is removed.

[Roy]

I often wonder how the Injuns did it?

[Pat B]

Pappy, I do check the bow through each aspect of the building process but mostly by eyeballing. I do want my brace , from low brace through full brace to be within reason as I'm building a bow but I'm more concerned how the full draw profile looks in the end. I have made a bow or two with screwy brace profile because of the stave used that were right on at full draw. With a bow that has reflex or deflex in one limb or other abnormality we see with selfbows I don't see how measuring positive tiller at brace makes a difference. Eyeballing the overall look of the braced profile, even with squinted eyes to eliminate the details gives me a better "feel" for the condition of the building process. Does that make since? 

[blackhawk]

So what pats saying is his experienced eyeball can see the same thing a take measure will tell ya    couldn't agree more

[Pappy]

Yes Pat I understand,guess my eyes just ant that good or I don't trust them. I can see right off at first brace if I am close to where I want to be but always measure anyway right out of the fads,depending on the side profile on measuring anywhere else.  Roy they could used a string. toomanyknots it also depends on how one shoots,Jimmy in our club draws long and hold for a good while and shoots a lot,I mean a lot, low grip and 3 under,he will wear out a selfbow in a season. It also depends a lot on the wood and if it is seasoned I believe. Some say it don't matter but I think it does.
   Pappy