Why I think osage is an inferior bow wood...

[Sidewinder]

  I just could'nt resist throwing my two cents worth in. I have read about 7 pages of the earlier part of this discussion and decided I would comment.
  I'm not near smart enough to even consider the issues on a physics level. Or maybe I should say
I'm too lazy mentally to try and apply myself to that understanding. I do however really appreciate the minds that some of you guys have and the way you are wired. It seems some people don't have to do the mental gymnastics to grasp these concepts and it comes with more ease. I have however benefited from considering the concepts presented regarding design, mass etc... Having considered these things I have drawn a few conclussions that I am confortable with to use as a basis for how I do my bows.
  I think that Steve "Badger"s mass theory has merit in terms of optimizing effeciency when the mass is properly distributed throughout the bow. I like to make a bow that is not overbuilt but also not on the edge of destruction either. I don't need to make it the fastest bow around. I need to make it fast enough, without sacrificing durablity. I personally prefer bows around 60" long that will pull around 50# at my 26.5" draw length. I like to make my limbs moderatly narrow in the last 1/3 so as to gain as much cast as I can without sacrificing stability. I prefer to shoot a little heavier arrow (10gr per pound or a little more), so as to harvest as much of the energy stored in the limbs and therefore get good penetration and less of a bump on release. I like to have a bow that is light in the hand, balances well and draws smooth with little or no stack. I want it to be a pleasant expreience everytime I shoot it. For the most part thats what I am able to achieve these days.
  Osage orange is what I have the most to work with and so I am very fond of it. I am fully convinced that it has the greatest combination of attributes that are conducive to making a bow such as I described above, time in and time out. I have tried to make good bows with hickory but over time they get sluggish due to the humidity. I have recently worked with Hackberry and find it pretty agreeable but I think I like the way osage recieves and retains its shape when trying to make heat correction in it. I am not impressed with red oak but I have only tried a couple. Mulberry is pretty good but the few I have done with it were not as dense as I would like  I think I will try it again soon. My opinion is you can make a bow out of many different kinds of woods but for me, osage orange is just darn hard to beat. It does well in tension, compression, takes heat corrections with ease, is durable unlike so many others, does not get sluggish in high humidity, can get thrown around in the back of the truck and get a few nicks here and there and still be a sound bow. For me, If I was gonna make a bow that I needed to last me for the rest of my life and not worry about it in any condition, it will be osage.
  I know I am biased and that I really have'nt tried a lot of different kinds of woods, but I don't need to, cuz I'm in love with the yellar wood and have plenty of it.
  It is also excellent for heating and cooking, although my favorite combination for grilling over the open fire is a base of osage coals and then throw in a few semi green mulberry logs and you have a heat and flavor combination that is imparted to the meat that you can't beat at even the most high dollar restaraunts. We eat like kings around our campfires I can assure you.

So there is my two cents worth.     Danny
 

[RyanY]

Danny, If white woods aren't making bows in the style you want then it's a design problem not a wood problem. I recently made a hickory bow that was 60" and 45#@26" and has retained its reflex. Another 5# and half and inch of draw length would be no problem. Humidity is also not a wood problem. Get white woods to low enough humidity and they will have excellent performance. Sounds like you know what you're doing though. Go ahead and make your yellow bows but don't say white woods won't do the same.

Update: I shot the poplar bow. Quite snappy and was able to create a bruise formerly known as my forearm!

[toomanyknots]

I have recently worked with Hackberry and find it pretty agreeable but I think I like the way osage recieves and retains its shape when trying to make heat correction in it.

Hackberry steam bends better than any wood I have ever tried. Try steam, it works better and is safer for the bow.

Mulberry is pretty good but the few I have done with it were not as dense as I would like  I think I will try it again soon.

Thats one of the good features of mulberry, is that although it is very light, it is still reasonably exceptable in compression. So it will make a very qucik and snappy bow. Traditional yumis were made of mulberry. I would not think the horn bowyers would of used it for siyahs in there horn bows either, if it was very dense, as that would be counter productive.

[BowEd]

It's not that my mind can't be changed.My evidence is right in front of me here.You hav'nt seen it but still asking why.Pull some more shavings and find out.There is a distinct disconnection to that point that is not addressed.

[blackhawk]

Nice of you to drop by Danny...sit down awhile and stick around for the conversation.

What I liked best about what Danny said and SOOOOO many others have echoed before is that if he had to make one bow to last him the rest of his life and not worry about it in any condition it wood be osage. That speaks volumnes in my opinion.

Ryan the answer is actually that easy..it is "just because"..your making this too complicated..its because it has been proven by many unofficially and officially that it is def a top three superior wood for bows. Its because ash is not osage,its because poplar isn't osage...they don't have the same properties,they were not made equally,and designing them to make the same bend doesn't make them the same. Your thinking in a tea cup called design only.

[rossfactor]

"What about that tree? Can we make bows from that?"
"That tree produces wood the color of gold and hard as a rock. Too much work and we can make good hunting bows from plenty of other woods. Why bother."

That would be an interesting conversation except.. didn't the lots of NAs near to the native range of Osage  (and beyond due to trade)  tribe make their bows out of Osage?

I don't know how credible this source is but...

From the Misourri Dept of COnservation website:
http://mdc.mo.gov/conmag/1995/11/enduring-osage-orange

"But early explorers, like Marquette and Joliet, did find the trees growing near Osage Indian villages. And it was from the branch wood of the Osage orange tree that the Indians made their highly prized bows. Osage orange bow blanks and finished bows were prime items of barter among the tribes. One early report said a well balanced bow was worth a "comely young squaw" in trade. Another said that in the early 1800s the price of a good Osage orange bow was a horse and a blanket. Tribal wars were fought for possession of lands generously supplied with Osage orange trees".

I sure wouldn't fight a land war about access to bow wood that sucked.

Gabe

[Sidewinder]

My personal opinion is that if a different bow wood blows your skirt up then by all means use it. I will make bows from other woods, its just that most of the time, I'm grabbing a hedge stick.

Toomanyknots...thanks for the encouragement on the hackberry and the mulberry. I still have some nice staves of these in the shed so they will get worked for sure. I will say this about hackberry at least around these parts, there is more straight hack than hedge thats for sure and it cures out alot quicker.

[Sidewinder]

Blackhawk, thanks for the invite, Ill be lurking.   Danny

[RyanY]

blackhawk, you say osage is superior because it can do things that other woods can't is where I have the problem. Just because they don't have the same properties doesn't mean one is better than the other. That's where design comes into play.

rossfactor, thats awesome to know. Thank you for sharing that. I bet a good bow of any wood was a valuable item in those times.

Osage guys, how did the native american tribes without access to osage survive for so long? 

[BowEd]

Survive.......LOL.They were over powered by osage toting indians and the white man with his gun of course........LOL.Then they ate government soured up beef and pork on the reservation.

[twilightandmist]

i think the entire argument truly comes down to two points. one: does the bow do what you intended it to do? two: are you satisfied and happy with it? if the answer is yes to both of these, then does the wood choice/ design argument really matter? that being said, i think EVERY wood and EVERY design has advantages and drawbacks. the true lesson is that one without the other is nothing at all. you need a wood suited to the design you intend to use, and likewise a design suited to the wood you intend to use. beyond that, it is up to the craftsman to make it work, because wood will not make itself into a bow.

[RyanY]

Beadman, I'm surprised the osage bows weren't able to rise up against guns!

twilightandmist, Here's why I think it's important. I think more often than not, beginners are thrust into an osage is king world. As a beginner, chances are that you'll break your first bow or it'll be a piece of crap. I actually hold the record for worst first bow ever. The old timers that teach newcomers thrust an osage stave into their hands and teach them to make a bow from it. Osage is very forgiving. Because of its strength and density, it can easily be overbuilt and make a working bow even if the skill level is not great. So when a beginner makes an osage bow they may think that its a lot better than other woods which is simply not the case. Everyone is entitled to have their favorite woods but, for me, I'd like bow making to encompass the whole spectrum of woods, designs, cultures, etc. And the only way we can do that is by teaching and emphasizing the principles of bow making. I am extremely passionate about this hobby we all share (as I'm sure everyone can tell) and I want to see the variety that makes making primitive wooden bows such a fun and fascinating hobby.

[ionicmuffin]

guns only work because they can be reloaded faster now and take no skill to fire decently, on the other hand, a bow had shorter range and was in need of skill to be used properly, although before guns really took off bows were still faster rates of fire.

[twilightandmist]

very true, ryoon. very true. my personal favorite wood to work with is black cherry, harvested locally. but it can be a challenge, as i tend to shy away from backing bows. glue hates me, i cant even get a riser to stay glued on. my only successful glue experiences are 1 sinew backed bow and a single pair of glued up tips. and my first working bow was a black walnut elb. it still works, though i have no idea how. it bends almost nowhere but the handle, and has rather large chrysals all over the belly.

on the note of overbuilding, there are some whitewoods that this can be done with as well. hickory, to name one. I am by no means an osage snob, far from it actually, i love working whitewoods. but i can't get my hands on anything consistently good around here other than the occasional cherry tree. but i must admit, osage makes the job easier. on the other hand, if bowmaking wasnt challenging, then what pleasure would we derive from doing it? I do it for the love of it, not the specs.

[Onebowonder]

<snip>...guys, how did the native american tribes without access to osage survive for so long? 

Apparently they traded off all their comely daughters for good Osage staves!  Now, I have only a limited understanding of genetics, but if this were the case for an extended period of time, wouldn't we have to expect to find that over time all the tribes that controlled access to good Osage would become very good looking?  ...While the other tribes would become progressively uglier?

OneBow