Plain-ish style bow HELP a-long

[hedgeapple]

If this needs to be moved to the build-a-long section please do so.  I put it here because I will be seeking more advice than I'm giving.

History: I cut this sappling/shoot over 3 years ago.  It chased a ring, but it had a big knot about 5 inch from the tip of one limb, so it got put into the "one day I'll tackle this stave" pile.  It was about a 6" diameter sappling.

Well I wanted to build a gullwing/5 curver/plains Indian bow for a photo shoot.  I eventually make my way to this stave.  HMMM if I cut off the big knot, I'd have a 50" bow to work with.  So I did.  After working this stave down I bit, I fell in love with it.  Heck with making a 20 lb. bow for a model to hold, I want to make this one for myself and try to get 40-45# @ 26" bow for me. 

I was sooo hoping to get to Paddy's Camp-o-rama with this stick of wood, because I felt sure Pat and others there could get me started.  Well, life's dealer gave me another hand to play.  So I'm looking for help on this forum.

So, here we go.  My first picture is actually a drawing of what the stave started out looking like.  I promise I will actually take pics from now on through this process.

[hedgeapple]

The r/d look of the right limb gave me the idea of the 5 curve design.  All I needed to  do was to  bend the left limb to match.  RIGHT!  First attempt at dry heat--no effect.  I removed more wood and tried again. Very little change.  I removed more wood.  The handle area was now .85" with the limbs tapering to .69.  Some bend but, after a few hours it was the same as the last attempt.

I removed more wood and tried once more.  Handle area at .80" limbs tapering to .65.  This time I lifted a splitter in a knot on the handle.  There was improvement, I thought I might be able to tiller it.  A few hours later it had returned to the second heat bending status.

I sanded out the splitter leaving the handle at .74" limbs tapering to . 60".  I put a piece of steel over the handle to prevent another splitter.  My heating/bending method was with the stave on blocks.  I heated the belly with a heat gun.  But, I could reach under the bow and feel how much heat was pentrating to the back of the stave.  I would heat from the top (belly side) until the back of the stave was hot to touch.  I know the  heat was pentrating through the stave.  This time was an improvement.  There was a reflex/bend in the left limb. But the tip was still way more deflexed than was the tip on the right limb.  grrr.

OK time to pull out the big guns.  I tried steaming.  I set up a camp stove with a 12"x12 pan of water with my form setting right in front of it.  I place the right limb directly over the steam pan for 1 hour with an aluminum foil tent over it.  Then I put the stave on the form bent it with clamps (it bent pretty easily).  Then I created at steam directing tent with the aluminum foil to cover the pan and the stave.  Time for construction 90 seconds.  I let it steam for another 30 minutes.  After turning off the heat, I let the bow stay on the form for 2 1/2 day to rehydrate.

The r/d of the two limbs looks similar, except the left limb was much more deflex at the handle.  Eventhough I had clapped a strip of metal to the handle, the knot around the handle lifted another small splittter in a different location than before.  Once again GRRR!

I sanded the handle down to .70 limbs tapering to .54.  I gave up on  making that limb bend the way I want it to.  There are 4 major pin knots in that limb and a couple more minor ones.

So I went to the right limb to "flatten" to match the left limb.  This is what the stave looks like now.

[hedgeapple]

Gosh, I feel like I've written a novel so far.  I just want to give you all the  information possible so you all could better help me.  Honestly, if the minimum skill level to make this bow was a 5, I feel my level is a 4.9.  So I'm really pushing myself on this attempt.

Here's the rest of the bow. The growth rings are 1/4 thick.

[hedgeapple]

Specs:
50" ttt
1 1/2 " wide
desired weight 40-45# @ 26"
I will be sinewing the back
bendy handle--I want to feel the handle move at full draw.
slightly flipped tips
about 1" of deflex at the recurve in the tips

Plan of attack:
Get it to brace then sinew the handle area, since the handle
Get pulling about 16-20" then sinew the back

Any advice is helpful.

[blackhawk]

Looking good so far Dave..

Looks like you've already learned some lessons and that stave is teaching ya few things. I like to wait till my stave is floor tillered before I heat shape or make any corrections. You were trying to correct it being too thick,and not getting it hot enough. Like you said once the back is too hot to touch its good and pliable ready to be shaped and corrected.

I would also just sinew it all at once. And sinew it into some reflex by reverse bracing it or set up in blocks with the tips propped up and the handle tied down with a strand of sinew. Me personally I would've taken some of that deflex out(at least straight) with heat before sinewing also. And with that stave I prob would've setback the handle area as well.

[Josh B]

Yep, looking good so far!  I agree with Blackhawk, for the five curve style (and  best performance) you might want to set back the handle.  I made my caul from tracing an old 3# coffee can.  Ideally,you want to setback the handle until the tips are 2" or 3" forward of the handle before sinewing  .  Make sure you have an even long string tiller before you sinew so that any reflex the sinew pulls in will be even as well.  Looking real good so far.  Josh

[hedgeapple]

Thanks guys for the advice.  Keep it coming.

The bow is floor tillered and was to the floor tiller stage when I steamed it.

I really, really want this bow to have a set back handle.  BUT, I don't think the knot in the handle is going to let me do it, since it has lifted a splitter twice.  I don't have enough wood left to take a any more  wood from it.  But since I plan to sinew around the handle anyhow, I guess my question would be: Performance wise, would it be better to set back the handle even if it lifts a splitter and needs patching OR to just leave the handle as is with no splitter?

Doc, I'd love to see your caul.  Could you post a pic?

[Josh B]

I wish I could post a pic of it, but I'm on the road.  It's pretty simple really. Its just a half circle cut out of a 2 x 6 with five 1" holes spaced evenly about an inch from the outside edge of the curve so that i can use c-clamps.  As far as the knots go, that is a problem.  They won't take much bending before they tear, as you already know.  A setback handle is a fairly tight bend especially when starting from a deflex .  Patching the handle might be possible, but it will be iffy at best.  I can't recommend it.  However if you do try it.  Groove it so that you have a better glue line and sinew wrap the whole thing.  If you setback the handle and sinew it, your gonna want to wrap the handle area anyway, as that will be a place that the sinew will want to lift off the wood.  Good luck and always remember, the wood will tell you what it wants to be.  It will also tell you what it doesn't want to be.  You may be better off to find a cleaner stave for the five curve or gullwing.  Josh

[hedgeapple]

Thanks Josh for the advice.  Yeah, I'm thinking this stave has taken about all the heat/steam bending it can take.  For referrence the pic with Knot 4 is the one in the handle.

I know starting with a bow with an inch deflex will not yield the same performance as starting with a bow with an inch reflex will yield.

But, here's my thinking.  Feel free to tell my I"m crazy   This stave is 50" ttt, so probably 48 1/2 n2n.  I'm looking to draw it 26".  The handle will be only slightly bending and I'm thinking the sinew wrap on it will stiffen it even more.  Then take away the 4 inches of flipped tips. That leaves just a little over 18 inche per limb to do all the work.  And, both limbs have knots. So, a little deflex might not be a bad thing for my first bow shorter than 2x my draw length.

Feel free to correct me if I'm way off in my thinking.

[Josh B]

Sounds good to me.  Although, I would try to flip the tips a little more.  I just made one for Sadie thats pretty close to those dimensions.  It was riddled with knots so I was limited on how much correction/reflexing that I could do.  It ended up pretty darn fast. Its under "tale of an old fencepost" in the bow section if you want to look at it.  Josh

[LivingElemental]

I'm not trying to hijack your thread, but i'm trying to do a similar thing with my bow, 53 ttt, and I want to get 55-60# at 24", so Im waiting on my dad to send me some cow hide to back it with. I don't have any hide glue, nor do I have a boiler pot or a place to use it, should I decide to buy some.

Does wood glue work with hide, or will it be too prone to fail after some use?

[hedgeapple]

Josh, I saw Saddie's bow when it was posted and went back to re-read the thread.  Nicely done!  I hope mine turns out that well.  The finish profile on that bow is almost identical you what mine looks like now.

I might could get some more flip out of the tips.  There is one issue: knot #1 is on the edge of the limb pretty much where the flip starts.  That knot starts at the edge on the belly and actually come out on the side of the limb about half between the back and the belly.  There's a strong swirl of grain around the knot on the mid limb side.  I haven't been too concern with it yet since it would be in a non-bend area.  And, it might be worked out when I narrow the tip and reduce the thicknes of the tip.

My question: have you ever had issues with the swirl of grain around a knot once the knot has been removed from the edge of the limb?  I did on a bow a few months ago.  It was in the fade out about where the arrow plate would be.  The swirl was barely noticeable, in fact I didn't see it until the splitter lifted.  I wrapped sinew around it.  It seems to be holding.  I just need to finish tillering that one.

[Josh B]

Every knot is different, but on that one I would eliminate it if I could before it has a chance to give me fits.  Out toward the tip has a lot less strain on it than at the fades.  If you have the thickness, you can completely cut that knot out.  But only if its not going to create a hinge.  Here is a similar knot cut out so it couldn't give me fits later.  Josh

[hedgeapple]

Josh, that's exactly what I was thinking of doing with that knot.  I haven't seen that technique used, or I just didn't notice it but it made sense to me.  I cleaned up around it some today.  I"ll post pics tomorrow.  I know my on-camera flash will not give a good picture.  So, I want to wait for some sunlight.  I'm just too lazy tonight to set up the studio lighting tonight.  Ah heck, what else am I doing right now.  I'll have pics up in a little bit.

[hedgeapple]

Here's the picture.  I can probably leave it as is and not try to flip the tips any more.  Or I could try to remove the knot using the scallop technique you used and flip the tips more--most likely.

If I do the scallop trick I'll be loosing tips mass.  Blackhawk would be proud.