Author Topic: Understanding hand shock???  (Read 9419 times)

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Offline coaster500

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Re: Understanding hand shock???
« Reply #15 on: July 14, 2012, 06:40:23 pm »
The bow it weighs 1.3 pounds...  62 50@27...  and by gentle curve you mean more than this or more?

I can try the fast flight but can't imagine it being that much different....  we will give it a try though

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Offline Badger

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Re: Understanding hand shock???
« Reply #16 on: July 14, 2012, 06:59:49 pm »
 Coaster, maybe a couple of inches  more, big difference with fast flight.

Offline bubby

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Re: Understanding hand shock???
« Reply #17 on: July 14, 2012, 07:55:36 pm »
why not post one of your vidios shooting the bow, get a look at how she's working, Bub
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Offline coaster500

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Re: Understanding hand shock???
« Reply #18 on: July 14, 2012, 08:16:12 pm »
why not post one of your vidios shooting the bow, get a look at how she's working, Bub

I did Bubby but here it is again...  for some reason it's a link not a picture link???

http://s28.photobucket.com/albums/c210/coaster500/Osage%20three%20gentle%20flip%20march%202012/?action=view&current=KipsOsageHunteraftershooting019.mp4

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Offline Knapper

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Re: Understanding hand shock???
« Reply #19 on: July 14, 2012, 09:48:57 pm »
Just a thought! Not sure about this but the last Osage bow I built was design from TBB. After tiller was done and I started shooting it , it had awful hand shock. So I put it aside and studied the situation. After a month or so I took the bow back to the target and shot it every day for a couple of weeks and to my surprise the more it was shot the less hand shock it had! today it shoots fine. I suppose it just needed to be broke in !
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mikekeswick

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Re: Understanding hand shock???
« Reply #20 on: July 15, 2012, 05:20:38 am »
I would say you need to get more bend out of the outer limbs. The way I see it for your width profile the outer limbs definately need more bend. Look at where the set is on your bow - inner limbs. I have found sticking to the 'mantra' in the TBB's of tillering your bow so that there is no set in the inner limbs, a little mid-limb and the rest out to the tips will give you a shockless bow. Basically there is extra wood on your bow that isn't doing anything.
I would re-tiller it by reducing the width from around mid-limb out to the tips. Make your tips 3/8ths wide. If you find that reducing the width hasn't helped the out limb bend then do a little scraping on the thickness. GO SLOWLY though with plenty of exercising between reductions.
I always use fast flight (dyneema) strings and have never had a problem with them.

Offline coaster500

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Re: Understanding hand shock???
« Reply #21 on: July 15, 2012, 11:06:23 am »
I would say you need to get more bend out of the outer limbs. The way I see it for your width profile the outer limbs definately need more bend. Look at where the set is on your bow - inner limbs. I have found sticking to the 'mantra' in the TBB's of tillering your bow so that there is no set in the inner limbs, a little mid-limb and the rest out to the tips will give you a shockless bow. Basically there is extra wood on your bow that isn't doing anything.
I would re-tiller it by reducing the width from around mid-limb out to the tips. Make your tips 3/8ths wide. If you find that reducing the width hasn't helped the out limb bend then do a little scraping on the thickness. GO SLOWLY though with plenty of exercising between reductions.
I always use fast flight (dyneema) strings and have never had a problem with them.

After watching the video and laying this bow side by side with others I think you hit the nail on the head Mike...  fastflight might help as well as curving the tips but that would not fix the basic problem...  I think I got to conservative with wood removal around the knot and carried it through the whole bow.

Thank you all

Kip
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Offline Del the cat

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Re: Understanding hand shock???
« Reply #22 on: July 15, 2012, 12:32:00 pm »
... so that's 'excess mass' then? O:).
Del
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Offline Badger

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Re: Understanding hand shock???
« Reply #23 on: July 15, 2012, 03:38:06 pm »
Del, lots of design elements contribute to handshock but one thing we all know is that it is energy left in the bow not used by the arrow. The limbs have momentum in them when they move forward, the only thing holding them back is the arrow. The lower the outer limb mass the less momentum obviously. Also we can incorporate design elements that give the arrow better leverage over the limbs as we see in recurves and r/d bows. Idealy the limb tips will come almost to a stop right before the arrow leaves the bow. If the limb tips come to a stop before the inner limb which is very common in tillers where we get the whole limb bending, we feel a rattle type shock. If the limbs all come forward at almosty the same time like we might see in an elb type arc of the circle tiller we can get a teeth rattling jolt. The string angles respong not just to the limb tips but to their relation to the entire bow limb throughout the draw. If the outer limb starts to flex first and then the bend works it's way inward and lastly bends up to the fades I believe it will have less shock because as it unwinds all the arrow is trying to hold back are the tips.

Offline Del the cat

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Re: Understanding hand shock???
« Reply #24 on: July 15, 2012, 04:41:39 pm »
Thanks Badger, V lucid explanation.
I'll have to try an r/d  laminated design. I have some Oregon Yew billets with borer damaged sapwood and a length of boo which keep calling me to the workshop ;D.
Del
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Offline coaster500

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Re: Understanding hand shock???
« Reply #25 on: July 15, 2012, 08:13:49 pm »
... so that's 'excess mass' then? O:).
Del
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That cup of milk might spoil crossing the pone but send me an address and I think I can manage a GOLD STAR  :laugh:


Del, lots of design elements contribute to handshock but one thing we all know is that it is energy left in the bow not used by the arrow. The limbs have momentum in them when they move forward, the only thing holding them back is the arrow. The lower the outer limb mass the less momentum obviously. Also we can incorporate design elements that give the arrow better leverage over the limbs as we see in recurves and r/d bows. Idealy the limb tips will come almost to a stop right before the arrow leaves the bow. If the limb tips come to a stop before the inner limb which is very common in tillers where we get the whole limb bending, we feel a rattle type shock. If the limbs all come forward at almosty the same time like we might see in an elb type arc of the circle tiller we can get a teeth rattling jolt. The string angles respong not just to the limb tips but to their relation to the entire bow limb throughout the draw. If the outer limb starts to flex first and then the bend works it's way inward and lastly bends up to the fades I believe it will have less shock because as it unwinds all the arrow is trying to hold back are the tips.

Badger, thank you for that breakdown....  when you are relatively new at this stuff and flying for the most part by the seat of your pants, copying blended with a bit instinct it's nice when someone says something that turns the light on :)
« Last Edit: July 15, 2012, 08:21:39 pm by coaster500 »
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Offline H Rhodes

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Re: Understanding hand shock???
« Reply #26 on: July 15, 2012, 09:35:25 pm »
An interesting thread.  thanks guys - very informative.  I think I am going to start scraping away at the tips of some of my previous bows which are on the "this damn thing hurts when I shoot it!" list. 
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Offline Buckeye Guy

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Re: Understanding hand shock???
« Reply #27 on: July 16, 2012, 01:39:52 pm »
Sorry I'm a little late to see this !
Just to look at that thing makes my whole arm hurt !
most of the work is inboard with way to much weight outboard = ouch !!!!
Glad the folks could set you to fixing it !!
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Offline crooketarrow

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Re: Understanding hand shock???
« Reply #28 on: July 16, 2012, 05:27:55 pm »
   3 Things causes hand shock.
   The tips have to much mass.
   The tillers not correct and one limb finishs before the other.
   Bendy handles. Bendy handle bows have more hand shock that stiff handle bows.

   There a few other things that causes a little.
   Lighter the bow the more hand shock the bow has. Again mass has little over all to do with it.
   To light a arrow alows more hand shock into the bow. Heavyer arrows alows more of the bows engery to go into the arrow and not into the handle. Again  it's not enough to be a lot.
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Offline Marc St Louis

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Re: Understanding hand shock???
« Reply #29 on: July 16, 2012, 08:19:35 pm »
Generally speaking the only thing that will give a bow, by itself, excessive hand shock is too much outer limb mass.  The worse offender is having the inner limbs doing all the work and the outer limbs stiff and unbending.  When the string slams back home any energy that remains in the bow will travel down the limbs making them bow outwards.  If most of the limb is working then this remaining energy will be distributed throughout the limb with very little handle movement.  If the only part of the limbs that are actually working is near the handle then this will concentrate the remaining energy in that area and tend to make the handle bounce back and forth in your hand.

Limb timing has been talked about before but this is very ambiguous.  Unless your bow making skills are very pour you should be able to easily tell whether one outer limb has more mass than the other and that is one of the very few things, if not the only thing, that can actually affect limb timing. The other thing that may affect limb timing is having one limb much stronger than the other and this is also something that is very noticeable, this one is very iffy though as a stronger limb would have more mass which would tend to slow down it's return making it pretty well the same as the weaker limb.
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