Hungarian bow recommendations?

[Tomorrow_King]

Hello I just joined your forum, for a long time I've wanted to get a Hungarian bow as I really like them from an aesthetic standpoint and the history behind them. I recently started looking in earnest into getting one. Trouble is there are a lot of options and very little info out there on them, I'll occasionally see little snippets of information about particular ones but never full on reviews or comparisions which makes a decision tough as I unfortunately will have no way of getting to shoot one before hand as the few archery shops in my area carry almost exclusively compound bows with the occasional recurve. Two I have been looking at are Grozer's Nomad G 5 Old Hungarian, from an aesthetic point of view these bows I adore, they have a nice natural look more like genuine hornbows only at a price more appropriate of a person just starting out with them. I've also been told they are very fast and a very good bow. The other I have been looking at is Kassai's Panther, a bit pricier then the Nomad and not as much of a looker but this one I have been told is smoother and more accurate. These are how they were described to me by a dealer I have been emailing. Does anyone have any experience with one or both bowers and have any recommendations or other helpful info? My budget isn't sky high so please no recommendations of saluki's haha I've asked about this on a few other forums and have gotten very few replys that were about Hungarian bows, most were either "save and get a Saluki" or "you should look into Korean bows[or something else very different]".

[M-P]

Howdy,  Most of us here are primarily concerned with making our own bows.  Buying a bow, even a bow with fiberglass in it is not exactly a forbidden topic, but not one that most of us have great experience with.   That said, I do own a Grozer Assyrian model bow and  like it.  I've seen and shot a Kassai Hungarian model bow.  Both bows appear well made, and of course have distinctive styling, but I think the Grozer is a somewhat better bow.

Ron

[Tomorrow_King]

Howdy,  Most of us here are primarily concerned with making our own bows.  Buying a bow, even a bow with fiberglass in it is not exactly a forbidden topic, but not one that most of us have great experience with.   That said, I do own a Grozer Assyrian model bow and  like it.  I've seen and shot a Kassai Hungarian model bow.  Both bows appear well made, and of course have distinctive styling, but I think the Grozer is a somewhat better bow.

Ron

Thanks for the reply, I gathered after registering for the forum and looking through the threads(after making this thread) that that was what this forum was more about. Sorry for asking about a premade bow, but glad its not too off topic of a subject to be allowed. I thought initially it was more all encompassing in regard to older bows since I found this site while trying to find info, in doing so I came across a thread on here by someone having a problem with their Kassai's string popping out when firing so figured asking here would be a good idea since that thread had so many replies. With your Assyrian bow which one of grozers models is it? Is it base, extra I, II, III, biocomposite, or horn? Do you happen to remember the model of Kassai by any chance? How did it feel shooting, any hand shock? The one thing that is holding me back on the Grozer is something the dealer I'm talking with mentioned, he said the Panther was more accurate then the Nomad and from reading online it seems the Kassai's have more narrow arrow passes then the Grozers and I'm guessing thats the reason for what he said. Being that almost all of my experience shooting is with a center shot recurve I have no real idea how much this effects accuracy or how to match arrows(arrows in general I need more education on as I go by my local shops recommendations) to something like this.

[Jude]

I wouldn't worry too much about the width of the arrow pass.  Closer to center-shot is more forgiving of poorly spined arrows, but lots of folks shoot accurately with bows measuring over 1.25 inches wide at the handle.  There is plenty of information on spining arrows on this forum.  Some of the shaft dealers offer test packs, with a sampler of shafts at graduated spine weights, so you can determine the best for your bow.  It's definitely worthwhile, before you buy a few dozen shafts, or Lord forbid, finished arrows, with the wrong spine for the bow.  Been there, done that, and they're still laying around waiting for the right bow.  Buy the bow you want, and tailor the arrow to it. JMHO

[arklowrebel]

Tomorrow_King, I have two Grozer bows - Roman and Avar Base.  Both are fantastic bows.  Ireland is not over-run with horsebows, but of those I have encountered, all agree that the Grozers are the best.  I say that without having held or shot a Kassai, which I understand are also terrific. 

The handshock is very minimal - certainly in comparison to "English" longbows that I have shot.

Accuracy is not an issue.  With the wrong arrow I could not hit a barn door at 10 yards.  With the right one, the bows are very, very accurate.  I went to my local club and borrowed arrows from every traditional or primitive archer I could find, until I hit on arrows that worked with my bow.  I then made arrows with similar specs and I'm slowly working from there to optimise matching arrows to the bow. 

I would recommend getting the highest poundage that you can manage.

Either way, have fun!

[toomanyknots]

I always wanted a grozer magyar/hunnic horn bow. They are beautiful bows in regards of looks, but I don't about anything else of them.

[M-P]

Howdy,   The Grozer bow (Assyrian) I have was obtained  second hand, but appears to be a basic II.   My friend's Kassai Hun is also second hand, but appears pretty plain.   It's hard to compare them directly as they are modeled on different historic styles and markedly different in draw weight.   Both shoot smoothly and as accurately as the archer holding them.   As others have remarked, the whole center-shot thing does make it easier to buy or make an arrow for your bow, but neither have particularly wide handles.   
My advice is buy whichever strikes your fancy.  Both makers have solid reputations.   My feeling is that their basic bows shoot on par with modern fiberglass recurves.   If you can afford it get some cosmetic upgrades.      Ron

[Tomorrow_King]

I wouldn't worry too much about the width of the arrow pass.  Closer to center-shot is more forgiving of poorly spined arrows, but lots of folks shoot accurately with bows measuring over 1.25 inches wide at the handle.  There is plenty of information on spining arrows on this forum.  Some of the shaft dealers offer test packs, with a sampler of shafts at graduated spine weights, so you can determine the best for your bow.  It's definitely worthwhile, before you buy a few dozen shafts, or Lord forbid, finished arrows, with the wrong spine for the bow.  Been there, done that, and they're still laying around waiting for the right bow.  Buy the bow you want, and tailor the arrow to it. JMHO

Very good info thanks a bunch! I will definitely look into an arrow test pack, my current arrows are victory carbon arrows with spines(took these off the makers site as I don't really understand them) of 0.500(30-50#) and 0.600(20-40#), arrows are 29" long, I'm using 100gr tips. One thing I've been wondering about arrows is when I get this bow one of the things I plan of doing with it is learning to do a mongol draw. From reading online it seems more often then not that people use longer arrows for this draw, pulling back to a farther point. I am wondering, if I got longer arrows to use for this if I could also use the same longer ones for three finger draw or if that excessive added length would effect their accuracy?

Tomorrow_King, I have two Grozer bows - Roman and Avar Base.  Both are fantastic bows.  Ireland is not over-run with horsebows, but of those I have encountered, all agree that the Grozers are the best.  I say that without having held or shot a Kassai, which I understand are also terrific. 

The handshock is very minimal - certainly in comparison to "English" longbows that I have shot.

Accuracy is not an issue.  With the wrong arrow I could not hit a barn door at 10 yards.  With the right one, the bows are very, very accurate.  I went to my local club and borrowed arrows from every traditional or primitive archer I could find, until I hit on arrows that worked with my bow.  I then made arrows with similar specs and I'm slowly working from there to optimise matching arrows to the bow. 

I would recommend getting the highest poundage that you can manage.

Either way, have fun!

I was also looking at the Avar bows, I contacted Grozer last night to ask a few questions about the Old Hungarian and the Avar was a bow that was recommend as a better beginner bow. I still rather like the look of the Old Hungarian more but I'm definitely going to try and do a little research on that bow as well, if it would be possible to order it in natural colored materials it might be something I could get used to the looks of. Glad to hear that about he hand shock, I've read very very mixed things about handshock on these fiberglass limbed bows from both Kassai and Grozer. I've read claims of zero handshock and have also read claims that its so severe as to make them unsupportable for very long. Then again the last person I heard say that about the severe handshock was shooting a $2.5k Saluki Turkish hornbow at my range so maybe he's just been really spoiled by his current bow. haha How difficult is it to make arrows by the way? Thats something I'd like to try down the road, would definitely like to shoot more period correct arrows with whatever bow I end up getting, just seem wrong to only use carbon arrows with a bow like this.

In regards to weight this is another thing I have yet to decide, my current bow, a Martin Jaguar Take-Down is 40# @ 28" with a 58" string length. I can shoot this all day without feeling any fatigue when I'm in practice and warmed up. So it would seem logical to stray not to far from that, but I've read these bows are very smooth and would feel like a lighter weight then they are. I'd definitely like to get a higher weight but I wouldn't want to overbow myself with a bow that I couldn't just drive down and swap at a shop or buy new limbs for. So I'm not too sure on what to get draw weight wise.

Howdy,   The Grozer bow (Assyrian) I have was obtained  second hand, but appears to be a basic II.   My friend's Kassai Hun is also second hand, but appears pretty plain.   It's hard to compare them directly as they are modeled on different historic styles and markedly different in draw weight.   Both shoot smoothly and as accurately as the archer holding them.   As others have remarked, the whole center-shot thing does make it easier to buy or make an arrow for your bow, but neither have particularly wide handles.   
My advice is buy whichever strikes your fancy.  Both makers have solid reputations.   My feeling is that their basic bows shoot on par with modern fiberglass recurves.   If you can afford it get some cosmetic upgrades.      Ron

Thanks for the info! I'm thinking I'm most likely going to get a Grozer then since it seems to be the general consensus that they are better made bow. Definitely going to be getting some cosmetic upgrades, only one option with the one I'm looking at but its still a lovely one, scrimshawed handle. But if I go with a different Grozer model will be definitely customising it in someway. But I'm in no rush so I'm going to keep doing some research and firing off emails to get as much info as I can before making the decision.

[Tomorrow_King]

bump.

[Tomorrow_King]

Any suggestions on draw weight for me?

[DarkSoul]

If you can shoot 40# comfortably all day, you might consider going up to 45#. If you want to go hunting or distance shooting, you may go to 50#, but 45# is very versatile. It's up to you really. Nothing wrong with 40# either.
It's not true that a horsebow feels lighter in drawweight than it actually is. It will feel smoother, with a smoother draw and release. But your muscles are still drawing back with the same force. So you will still feel an increase in drawweight.

[arklowrebel]

If you are already shooting 40# comfortably, I would definitely go up to 45# and even think about 50#.  I went from a 32# recurve to a 40# Grozer Roma without any difficulty.  Within a couple of months I picked up the 43# Avar in a Grozer sale.  I can feel the difference, but there's no problem drawing it.  If I had the cash, I'd go back for a 50# bow.  As it is, I got hooked on this site and am trying to make myself a 50# bow at the moment.  For you, I'd say 45#-50# depending on the use to which you want to put it.  If you're shooting over 40 yards, the extra poundage will certainly help.

[Tomorrow_King]

If you can shoot 40# comfortably all day, you might consider going up to 45#. If you want to go hunting or distance shooting, you may go to 50#, but 45# is very versatile. It's up to you really. Nothing wrong with 40# either.
It's not true that a horsebow feels lighter in drawweight than it actually is. It will feel smoother, with a smoother draw and release. But your muscles are still drawing back with the same force. So you will still feel an increase in drawweight.

Ahh ok I guess my understanding of smoothness was off. I've only ever had it explained to me once and that was by a guy who let me try his bow when I was shooting, I pulled back on it and it felt light, noticeably easier then mine to pull back and he said it was 40# same as mine, he said the difference in feel was the smoothness.

If you are already shooting 40# comfortably, I would definitely go up to 45# and even think about 50#.  I went from a 32# recurve to a 40# Grozer Roma without any difficulty.  Within a couple of months I picked up the 43# Avar in a Grozer sale.  I can feel the difference, but there's no problem drawing it.  If I had the cash, I'd go back for a 50# bow.  As it is, I got hooked on this site and am trying to make myself a 50# bow at the moment.  For you, I'd say 45#-50# depending on the use to which you want to put it.  If you're shooting over 40 yards, the extra poundage will certainly help.

I'm going to be doing most of my shooting at 30-40 yards as those are the farthest targets in the upper part of my local range, but I venture down fairly often when I go into the canyon below the range where they have a course set up in a wooded area, targets range from 25yrds all the way up to 80yrds marker but with added rough marks all the way back to 100yards. I won't be hunting, just pure target shooting. Your probably right in 45# being a good weight, little step up but not to extreme. 50# is also tempting, only thing I worry about would be having a weight to high to get proper form down if I'm struggling with the bow, since it will be a totally different style of shooting then what I currently do I'd imagine I will be making a lot more form mistakes since I will be learning this on my own due to the almost total lack(save for 1 guy) of people shooting this style in my area. But on the other hand I've been thinking of getting some 50# limbs for my Martin potentially so maybe I could use that for some strength training at home in between sessions, just repeatedly draw and hold possibly.

How do you like your Avar by the way? Was another bow I was looking at, imo not as pretty as the Old Hungarian but when I emailed Grozer they actually recommended it as a very good bow to start with along with the Baskir. I really like the look of all his Nomad bows. So I'm looking around for info on that one as well but as with the Old Hungarian info is very scarce, both in regards to opinions on the bow and how it shoots and good photos of it.

Also very cool you are making your own bow, the fact that you guys here are doing that is spectacular! Since joining I've been looking through the threads and I'm blow away by the amazing bows you all are crafting! Must take a very long time and lots of trial and error to gain the skills to make them! Its something I'd love to try to do someday, as is I doubt I've got the kind of tools needed to make one, I've got some old wood working tools from my dad but have never used them and in many cases don't even know how to use them. Not to mention zero wood working experience aside from carving walking sticks.



By the way anyone have any answers to my prior arrow questions?

[Tomorrow_King]

bump! 

[james parker]

after reading your post and the replys ,i can say nothing negative about the kassai or grozer style hungarian bows,, i did own and and shot a grozer stlye turk bow ,15 years or so ago,, i was not pleased with the handshock that it had,,, since then i have made many horn composite bows ,including the magyar style hungarian bow ,, none of which had any handshock,, it sounds as if you have a lot of inthusiasim,about the hungarain bows ,, if you have the tools and materials ,i think you should give it a try,,, if you need measurements  and lay-outs of the bow i can send them to you ,, i have all the info you would need to build a true horn composit magyar bow,,  james