Standing dead Revisted (Juniper)

[Keenan]

Allthough some trees are prone to decay and a standing dead should not be considered. Is it possible that there are some tree types that can even be better if they are standing dead. I'm sure that notion has just made some people utter words of disagreement. And I find it funny that just yesterday I was out looking specifically for a standing dead Juniper.
 Several years ago I broke the standard rule and made a Juniper bow for Gordon out of a standing dead Juniper sapling. I was more then impressed with the results. Therefore I have been doing more testing on a theory that I have. Juniper is very rot and mold resistant and if cut at the right time (After dying from drought) I believe it to be better bow wood then a living tree.  Here is why I say that.  When you cutting a living tree you have a clear distinction and contrast from sapwood  to heart wood.  However as the tree dies from a drought scenario, It appears that there is very little contrast between the two. As though the sapwood is turning into a blend heart wood that is both good for compresion and still has the tension quality of sapwood. We know that the living part of the tree is just beneath the cambium, and that as the layers are laid down, they age and eventually become heartwood. Yet I wonder if with the right conditions, like a drought, if that process is possibly increased and sped up, and at the same time giving just enough water to the wood to keep it from checking.     When I made that bow for Gordon I could barely tell a difference from the heart or sapwood. I have been comparing some of the staves I cut while green, with the standing dead and there is a difference.  A few advantage to this method are that with standing dead you have no checking or warping or other drying issues.  I know there are other issues with bugs and other factors. I thought tis might make for a good thought proking debate. Your input is welcome and I think it might be a good discusion if we are respectfull and embrace the possibilities of thinking outside the norm.
 Here are some pics of a few different bows. The bow that I made Gordon, and then two bows from live cut trees. Notice the difference? I'll try to get some pics this afternoon of some fresh cut live and fresh cut standing dead.

[Pat B]

Keenan, thanks for bringing this to light. One thing that you said that really strikes a note is the word "drought"! Typically east of the Mississippi is relatively wet and west of the Mississippi(MOL) is dry or at least dryer. Plants that grow in wet climates are different from plants that grow in dry climates, even in the same genus and species. I've seen common juniper dead standing trees and shrubs that only the heartwood was sound with the sapwood being flaky or powdery or not existing at all. The relative humidity and soil moisture is what allows molds and fungi to survive and in the east that is a constant. The west is relatively to very dry in R/H and soil M/C. Plants have developed certain characteristics to handle these different living conditions.
  Someone suggested that if a dead tree is not laying on the ground then it's moisture content is not an issue. I reject that because as long as the roots are in the ground the tree still has contact to the ground and through capillary action there is still moisture transfer. In an area like out west that has low R/H and very little to no soil M/C(ie. in drought conditions) will have less moisture transfer if any at all. In these areas I believe resins,etc are produced by the trees to make their minimal M/C less effected by the lack of water. Trees need moisture to survive and these resins their survival strategy to hold on the the moisture that they do get.
I'm sure there are folks that have defied this and built great bows from standing dead trees of Eastern woods. First the type of wood will determine whether or how quickly decay will set in. In the wetter eastern climates it doesn't take long for fungi to set in to most whitewoods, maybe even only hours after the tree dies. It is the job of the fungi to break down dead wood and when conditions are right that happens very quickly. After all if these fungi weren't eating all the wood we would be overrun with dead trees. Wood like osage, black locust, yew(we have Eastern yews too), mulberry and to some extent sassafras and some oaks are pretty rot resistant but given enough time even they will break down back.
  There are very few constants in our hobby, addiction or whatever you want to call it. A lot depends on where you live, what trees(or store bought wood) you have available to you, how you store it, how well and how long you season it and how well you tiller it into a bow. Each piece of wood is different even from the same tree. Each area of our country is different. Hickory can be sluggish in the humid East but out west it shines in the low R/H environment. A good piece of osage is effected little by the R/H of the East but can become brittle in a dry Western environment because it it just too dry for it.

[Pat B]

I guess we scared them off, Keenan! 

[Stiks-N-Strings]

this should be a good discussion (I ain't scared LOL) I have learned that what Pat is saying about wood characteristics to be pretty much spot on. even though my bowyering experience is only about three years I have been into wood working for most all my life. 

 I used to build custom box calls  and still do from time to time and know for certain that some species from a certain region are notably better for calls than the same species from a different region. I even noticed in call making that the same species subjected to different circumstances where better or worse. In bow making it only seems that this would hold true as well.

 When I decide to build a bow I don't go by the rules of the land I just grab a stick and build a bow. I am way beyond the point of loosing sleep when one breaks and never consider one a failure. I always look at each one whether it go's or blows as a learning experience and store that info for what works and what don't and what's better and what ain't.

 I'll try some of that dead juniper Keenan 

[vinemaplebows]

Keenan,


                        I have made bows from standing dead yew. Here is only a guess as to why this works well....Trees/ plants obsorb water through their roots then this is transported through the cambium layer, when a tree is dying it (may?) still obsorb water at a slower rate, but over time photosynthesis is slowed to a creep, and water that is transported out of the plant through the leaves stops. Now, the natural process of a live tree is over, and what normally sets in is fungi's of some kind that leads to spalting of most white woods. In the case of yew, and or a lot of rot resistant woods it is much harder because of natural chemicals in the wood for this to take hold, and discoloration of normal sapwood to heartwood may take place as the beginning stages of fungi attack, BUT with a given amount of time, and the right conditions this does not take place. I can only assume the reason is a slow, but gradual loss of water through evaporation due to wind, and heat. The bark staying in place I think is key, and once the dead tree reaches a level equilibrium with the outside elements, bark being the key to NOT let any drastic change one way or the other. I think once the bark is damaged, or starts to fall off the game is drastically changed, and a more rapid process of decay can take place depending on species.

Brian

[Keenan]

Bryce, Your thoughts confirm what I have been thinking on this subject, and yew is the only other type of tree that I have tried with these thoughts in mind. Juniper Junky and I have both made several bows from fire killed trees. Some were great and some seemed brittle and possibly just to dry from the fire. And I think the ones where the bark was burned were more prone to failure. It should be noted that allthough this might be a good theory for a few types of wood that this is not the norm for looking for bow wood.
 Here are some pics of a standing dead vs. live cut. The first is the standing dead cut yesterday. Looks grainy due to the saw cut. The second is a pic of a stave rough out from a live cut tree.

[vinemaplebows]

Keenan,

                      I am curious if those are both trunks, or one is a limb?? I ask because the diameter shown, and branches would (I would think) dry much faster being smaller in diameter compared to the trunk. I also would think the main trunk would stay wetter longer epecially in the lower regions due to soil contact, as well as girth that would take longer to dry?

Brian

[Keenan]

Brian. Those were both trunks of smaller diam saplings. I'll see if I can find a better pic of the whole fresh cut.

[vinemaplebows]

Keenan,

                 Going to cabelas they have a knapping get together there. I will post a pic of a dead wood yew bow later today, you can clearly see the decay starting in the sapwood. It looks cool to me. Talk at ya later.....

[DRon knife]

I really have nothing to offer on this debate but I wanted to take the time to thank all contributors,Its very interesting and informative! So thanks! Ron

[bubby]

this is an interesting concept and seems you have it well thought out, i really have nothing to offer on the subject because quite honestly, it's over my head :embarassed:, Bub

[rossfactor]

Brian I think you make a good point.  After photosynthesis stops, capillary action ultimatly stops. To effect a standing dead tree, in the absence of capillary action, water has to come from the air.  For either fungus or bacteria to colonize wood, water and oxygen are needed (except some crazy anaerobic bacteria).  SO if a tree can stay off the ground, and stay dry, including from excess humidity (two massive ifs), than it can resist decay for a long time.  Of course eventually, everything succombs to bacteria and or fungus.  We wouldn't want it any other way  .  And I agree with you pat the air humidity dramatically impacts decomposition rates, even for standing dead wood.

In fire killed wood, the hardening and charing of the exterior (natures heat treating  ) may also add to the decay resistance by forming a hydrophobic layer around the wood.  This is especially1 true in evergreens, because when the oily needles burn, the oil covers the outside of the tree (and the ground all around it).

Fire is a a healthy thing for forests, and it just might produce some healthy bow wood on the side.

Just some rambling thoughts.

By the way, that is a gorgeous piece of juniper, and a gorgeous bow Keenan.

gabe

[Blacktail]

its kind of funny you brought this up...last year i cut a live sapling tree and the heart wood was really small and the rest was sap...its really cool to see a sapling with that much heart wood...john

[Keenan]

Gabe, That is some great input and makes sense. Here in Central Oregon it is High desert and very low moisture much of the year. Yes Oregon is considered the wet state, however we are on the East side of the mountains and have an average of over 300 days a year of sunshine. So your thoughts on the moisture or "lack of" really come into play.

John. I just split that one that I cut yesterday and it appears dry and is feather light. It also looks like all heartwood except for the very outer edge. I know all live cut saplings appear to be almost all sapwood as you have stated. This is dry enough that I have sure I could tiller into a bow today if time allowed. I did a bend test on the junk side and was quite impressed. Had a great bend to it and when she let go it was almost a horse shoe shape and sent pieces all over the shop. May be a great survival tiller on the spot prospect.

Kris, It's easier for some of us to be abnormal and think outside the box

Pat,  I was almost scared to post these ramblings of my mind for the very reason of being considered a nut case.  Then I realized most have probably already drawn their own conclusions

[half eye]

Keenan,
       You might be interested to know that several of the Shoshonean tribes used that method exclusively. I'll look up the exact qoutes and refferences for you if you'd like. But essentially, it was trunkwood or limbwood (if large enough) of the Juniperus californica utahensis. They used it because in the "desert mountains" moist rot of dead wood never occures. Most bows were raerly larger than 3 feet in length and were of the "narrow" type and sinew backed as well as transversely wrapped......interestingly the Chemehuevis (Shoshonean) used the narrow type and were also the tribes known for decorating their bows with snake skins. The non shoshonean tribes of Navajo also adopted this type of bow.
      When the wife and granddaughter are done w/ the computer I'll quote the writers ver-batum and the sources.
rich