Author Topic: ELB or EWB?  (Read 11185 times)

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Offline bushman

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ELB or EWB?
« on: February 21, 2012, 07:44:12 pm »
Is there a difference between ELB and EWB or are they interchangeable? Thanks
Bushman

Offline Ian.

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Re: ELB or EWB?
« Reply #1 on: February 21, 2012, 08:15:21 pm »
ELB is a Victorian sport bow. EWB is a bow from the 11th to 16th century, an EWB is a type of Longbow but specific to one used in war.

Obviously the weights, sizes, and woods of both bows are different too.
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Offline bushman

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Re: ELB or EWB?
« Reply #2 on: February 21, 2012, 08:46:03 pm »
Ok thanks for clarifying that Ian.
Bushman

Offline adb

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Re: ELB or EWB?
« Reply #3 on: February 21, 2012, 10:36:45 pm »
They are also distinctly different in their final tiller profile. An EWB is generally tillered to bend 'full compass' with a more or less circular tiller. An ELB does not, usually remaining somewhat unbending in the grip, with a slightly elliptical tiller.
An EWB is designed to cast heavy arrows a good distance, where an ELB is made for shooting target arrows.

Offline Bernal

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Re: ELB or EWB?
« Reply #4 on: February 22, 2012, 08:03:38 pm »
While it's true that Victorian sport bows were mostly ELBs, I wouldn't say that the ELB is strictly a Victorian sport bow.

The name derives from the bows used by the English in battles between the 14th and 16th century. The EWB has several distinctive characteristics. The only examples available to us are those from the Mary Rose and thus the English Warbow Society defines a warbow as one that is 70+ pounds at 32 inches at the very minimum and at least 72 inches in length. The bow is tillered full compass, meaning that it bends through the handle and the arc is more circular than elliptical. The belly is rounded and the dimensions follows the 5/8ths rule for depth/width  throughout the bows limbs. While period warbows were most often yew, other woods were also used and today laminated woods are accepted. Warbows are not to have unnatural reflex though heat/steam straightening are acceptable. Adding a leather grip doesn't negate it being a warbow as long as it bends through the handle.

Basically, if you make a bow and it meets that criteria, then you can probably call it an English Warbow and not get your head chopped off. ;)

The English longbow is similar in most ways such as the 5/8ths rule, but could be less than 72" (but not by much as it is still a "long" bow), less than 70 lbs at 32 inches, and can have a non-bending fat or raised handle. Given the non-bending handle, the tiller will often be more elliptical.

On a side note, though not technically a part of any definitions I've ever run across, both the ELB and EWB most often have horn nocks. Most horn nocks seen today are shaped with the string groove cut across the back, but evidence from the Mary Rose clearly indicates that the nocks all had the groove on the side.

Offline Ian.

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Re: ELB or EWB?
« Reply #5 on: February 22, 2012, 08:28:16 pm »
The two types are almost completely different. I wasn't trying to give a full description, but more an overview. I think what I have said defined it fairly well. In what case would an English longbow not come from Victorian design?
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Offline Del the cat

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Re: ELB or EWB?
« Reply #6 on: February 23, 2012, 10:26:18 am »
There IS overlap between the two.
The Self Yew ELBs I make (of generally 40 - 70#) are full compass tillered and are more closely related to Warbows rather than the Victorian style.
I would hate them to be called Victorian style ELBs, but they are self evidently not Warbows.
I think you need to look at the actual individual bow to hang a name on it.
After all you could arbitarilly say that laminated longbows are Victorian, but of course some Warbows are laminated too.
Del
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Offline Yeomanbowman

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Re: ELB or EWB?
« Reply #7 on: February 23, 2012, 10:28:44 am »
I see the 5/8ths and 32” draw truism quoted quite often.  It’s right up there with ’The medieval longbow was the machine gun of the middle ages’.  But what is the evidence?  Seeing as we only have examples of Tudor yew bows (yew being of high modular elasticity).  These bows were also made from small diameter staves, so how do we know about all the other bows of different woods?  It seems to me that medieval bowyers either dogmatically used the same design as a yew bow for whatever wood they were using OR they adapted the design to obtain the best from any given wood, of which they would have considerable experience and plenty of resources.  The 5/8ths rule is a modern one that the BL-BS use for Victorian target bows.   

Offline Ian.

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Re: ELB or EWB?
« Reply #8 on: February 23, 2012, 10:58:24 am »
Jeremy, I take it you have seen the MR bow in Cardiff museum. It was in a case and in dim light but, I would guess that some parts of that bow could well be flatter in section that what would be allowed today. To be honest I wasn't overwhelmed by the bow, I would guess that it could have had a hinge when drawn, as the top limb had a flat spot towards the nock. It's cross section was not typical of the reproductions today.
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Offline Ian.

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Re: ELB or EWB?
« Reply #9 on: February 23, 2012, 11:15:12 am »
If you make them in the style of warbows then call them lighter replicas.  :laugh:

The origin of the two bows were different, there was a period when the bow fell out of use and was then re-adopted for sport, I don't think you can have something in-between the two.
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Offline Yeomanbowman

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Re: ELB or EWB?
« Reply #10 on: February 23, 2012, 01:20:12 pm »
Yes, you are quite right Ian, its well outside the 5/8ths and it's very flat too.  It's not a typical MR bow but I think it gives a glimpse of what a white wood bow may have looked like that was strong in tension and not so strong as yew in compression.     

I have some images that are not great but give some Idea.  the side against the metal stand is the back and is more crowned than the belly.



Offline Ian.

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Re: ELB or EWB?
« Reply #11 on: February 23, 2012, 01:46:11 pm »
Yeah that's the one, would be interesting to get some dimensions. The section was almost triangular if I remember, I cant imagine the bow could be much more than 100lb, but as you say perfect shape for a meane wood.
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Offline Prarie Bowyer

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Re: ELB or EWB?
« Reply #12 on: March 23, 2012, 03:39:13 am »
Huh,  I thought an EWB was a type of ELB. Whows WTH I know.

Offline bow-toxo

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Re: ELB or EWB?
« Reply #13 on: April 16, 2012, 08:12:18 pm »
Huh,  I thought an EWB was a type of ELB. Whows WTH I know.
I would consider that you were correct. The term “English Long Bow” was applied to the bows used in Victorian England, perhaps with the belief that the English longbows they read about were always made like theirs. The Mary Rose bows demonstrated otherwise, so the new term “Warbow" was invented. It is really ignorant to fail to recognize that the MR bows were indeed longbows and they were English. Mediaeval longbows of higher quality than military issue were also made with lighter draw weights for hunting or sport shooting, or even war. We can see examples in Denmark, Ireland and Germany. All longbows were a minimum length of a man’s height and were to be drawn to at least 32 inches. Yew of various cross sections was the preferred wood for all self bows since the stone age..The present so-called “English Long Bow”, because it is stiff at middle and ends, can be expected to break at that draw length. The bow in Cardiff doesn’t sound like MR. I believe all MR bows had round conical tips to hold horn side-nocks.
                                                Cheers,
                                                  Erik

Offline Ian.

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Re: ELB or EWB?
« Reply #14 on: April 16, 2012, 08:18:47 pm »
It is an MR bow and well worth a look, although I would bring a torch as they have it under mood lighting.
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