Author Topic: cheaters blanks?  (Read 7174 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Prarie Bowyer

  • Member
  • Posts: 1,599
cheaters blanks?
« on: November 25, 2011, 04:31:48 am »
So I've fixated on a video, which I lost, of a man knapping blanks he was cutting (mookite) on a lapidary saw.  His other work looked pretty thin and clean.  Is this how some of the knappers are getting those nearly perfect looking points?  Starting with cheater blanks?
  I'd think it's a more efficient use of stone.

Offline Newbow

  • Member
  • Posts: 105
Re: cheaters blanks?
« Reply #1 on: November 25, 2011, 05:22:12 am »
Yes, it is more efficient to slab your material.  You will get a good deal more out of it, but, no, it isn't necessary to slab it to get those perfect blades and points.  Take a look here:
http://paleoplanet69529.yuku.com/topic/47549/Question-for-Woody
for a step by step demonstration of the production of a point that many would swear could only be made from a blank. A blank (slab) will make it easier to keep everything neat and straight (after you learn how to handle it without snapping it in two) but when you reach a journeyman skill level you should be able to handle anything you get your hands on.

Offline Wolf Watcher

  • Member
  • Posts: 1,308
Re: cheaters blanks?
« Reply #2 on: November 25, 2011, 09:34:14 am »
Sorry you think a slab is cheating!  :( :( :(  If you have a beautiful piece of coral, a special agate or jasper the reason you slab it is to preserve every bit of the stone you can!  An example would be a Bruneau jasper cobble.  Hard to come by so if you can slab it you might get several points from it as opposed to maybe one good percusson point.  In my opinion you need to learn every reduction method possible to become a journeyman knapper as all have their place.  A/Ho Joe
Get Close---Shoot Straight

Offline Newbow

  • Member
  • Posts: 105
Re: cheaters blanks?
« Reply #3 on: November 25, 2011, 03:35:14 pm »
"Cheating" can only be defined by intent.  Many hard core Abo knappers are vociferous in their condemnation of slab knapping and if you aren't using certified Abo tools and techniques (tools and techniques vary depending on the beliefs of the individual Abo knapper, but that's another story) then you aren't knapping at all.  On the other hand, there are those knappers (fewer, I think, but I know some) who will condemn anyone who spalls out a nodule instead of slabbing it, as wasting a resource; kind of the knapping version of tree huggers.  I would suggest the following:  If your purpose is to replicate points for either personal satisfaction or to experiment with how our ancestors may have done it, then slabbing is cheating.  We may not know everything about the tools used in the past, but we are pretty sure they weren't using diamond tipped saws to slab their material.  If replication isn't your goal; if you just want to make points, then there is no such thing as cheating, providing you represent the finished product for what it is; a reproduction rather than a replication.  For the purpose of the above, I define reproduction as creating a piece that looks as much as possible like some particular object, without regard to how it came to look that way.  With replication, on the other hand, the techniques and tools are every bit as important as the finished product.  Other definitions may be different but I think you get the idea.  The slab vs spall controversy isn't going to go away but this is how I see it.

Offline Prarie Bowyer

  • Member
  • Posts: 1,599
Re: cheaters blanks?
« Reply #4 on: November 25, 2011, 06:24:54 pm »
Sorry you think a slab is cheating!  :( :( :(  If you have a beautiful piece of coral, a special agate or jasper the reason you slab it is to preserve every bit of the stone you can!  An example would be a Bruneau jasper cobble.  Hard to come by so if you can slab it you might get several points from it as opposed to maybe one good percusson point.  In my opinion you need to learn every reduction method possible to become a journeyman knapper as all have their place.  A/Ho Joe

Perhaps I should have said "short cut".  But slabs are likley not ABO.  I'm definately not above it and certainly all about the efficient use of materials.  It's just that 98% of the knapping videos you see on You Tube are a guy with rock -> Thick slab> Preform/biface-> point, or blade.  Pluss a tone of wasted stuff at their feet.

Infact I'm going to start soem glass knapping soon and looking at stained glass blanks because it I can precut it into blanks.  I also had the idea to use a glass cutter to precut a bottle bottom.  I just think it's strange that most of the videos show the hard way but after seeing that I found myself thinking that many of those nearly perfect blades must be made that way.  Particularily from exotic stones.

Offline bubby

  • Member
  • Posts: 11,054
Re: cheaters blanks?
« Reply #5 on: November 25, 2011, 08:14:54 pm »
there's nothing wrong with slabs, useing copper tools or going all abo, it's all relative to your mindset, and to be a good knapper you should try to learn all you can, besides, me being an old cowboy, if ya ain't cheatin', ya ain't trying ;D, Bub
failure is an option, everyone fails, it's how you handle it that matters.
The few the proud the 27🏹

Offline Wolf Watcher

  • Member
  • Posts: 1,308
Re: cheaters blanks?
« Reply #6 on: November 25, 2011, 08:35:55 pm »
One good thing about this forum is that we can all have our opinions.  I have been beating up on rocks for 50 years and still have lots to learn.  One of the very best knappers on this forum uses a Solberger Gig to make flutes with.  I don't thank anyone will tell him he is wrong.  The same philosophies can be used to talk about building stick bows.  Most everyone here uses some modern tool to build a bow with from the saw used to cut the blank to rasps, scrapers, clamps, heat guns, band saws, belt sanders, etc. and each has a right to choose his or her methods.  Some of the paleo people used a flake over grind technique to make spear points and copper has been around for thousands of years.  I hope you have as much fun with your knapping career as I have had.  A/Ho Joe
Get Close---Shoot Straight

Offline Prarie Bowyer

  • Member
  • Posts: 1,599
Re: cheaters blanks?
« Reply #7 on: November 25, 2011, 09:58:03 pm »
there's nothing wrong with slabs, useing copper tools or going all abo, it's all relative to your mindset, and to be a good knapper you should try to learn all you can, besides, me being an old cowboy, if ya ain't cheatin', ya ain't trying ;D, Bub

My goal realy is to be "good enough" for now.  That may change if I get bitten by the fever but I think I'm looknig for the efficient route to clean deadly tips.  I can see I'd like the tip designing, and finishing but the heavy work dosen't interest me. 


Offline mullet

  • Global Moderator
  • Member
  • Posts: 22,897
  • Eddie Parker
Re: cheaters blanks?
« Reply #8 on: November 26, 2011, 12:06:49 am »
Newbow,
We've been through this discussion over and over. There are a lot of ABO knappers and Percussion knappers that use nothing but boulders and spalls for reduction and then flaking to finish the edgework of a point that can't pressure flake a 1/4" slabbed preform worth a damn. Flake Over Grind pressure flaking has been around since the ancient Egyptians. I'm sure they didn't call it cheating when they were sticking them in the Persians and Syrians.

 I have to agree with Joe, when you have a small piece of Fire Opal from Australia you need to make the wife a fine necklace arrowhead for Christmas, I'll cut and grind that $1000 an ounce piece of rock first.
Lakeland, Florida
 If you have to pull the trigger, is it really archery?

Offline Newbow

  • Member
  • Posts: 105
Re: cheaters blanks?
« Reply #9 on: November 26, 2011, 02:40:43 am »
mullet:  Just as you say.

Offline Prarie Bowyer

  • Member
  • Posts: 1,599
Re: cheaters blanks?
« Reply #10 on: November 26, 2011, 03:45:15 am »
There is primitive technology to merrit the slabbing-> knapping?  I'd have thought they would use a copper or bronze head.

Offline Newbow

  • Member
  • Posts: 105
Re: cheaters blanks?
« Reply #11 on: November 26, 2011, 06:32:48 pm »
Prarie Bowyer:
What Wolf Watcher was referring to, I think, is the fact that native copper (non- refined/smelted, pure or nearly pure nuggets that occur naturally) has always been around and there is evidence that it was used at least occasionally as tools to make stone points (pressure flakers and possible percussion as well) and as points itself, in addition to ornamental purposes.  The problem is that there just wasn't that much of it around so stone points made with hammer stones/antler and organic pressure flakers like antler or bone would have been the norm even where copper was relatively common.  Chert was far cheaper, not to mention sharper, than copper ever could be.  As for flake over grind, FOG, that was indeed done prior to modern times, though I'm not aware of it in North America.  It was done in Egypt over 5000 years ago (see: http://lithiccastinglab.com/gallery-pages/2000octobergerzean.htm) but not from slabs.  The pieces were percussed to the basic shape and thickness and then were hand ground before being pressure flaked; a very labor intensive process, but doable if a person cared to invest the time.

Offline JW_Halverson

  • Member
  • Posts: 11,901
Re: cheaters blanks?
« Reply #12 on: November 26, 2011, 07:08:36 pm »
If you are still ashamed of the cheater blank arrowheads you have made, send 'em to me and I will haft them up on arrows and go lose them in the Black Hills where no one will ever find 'em.   Ain't I a good friend to offer to do that for you and not even charge you for my time or gas???

 ;D
Guns have triggers. Bicycles have wheels. Trees and bows have wooden limbs.

Offline RickB

  • Member
  • Posts: 301
Re: cheaters blanks?
« Reply #13 on: November 26, 2011, 08:27:13 pm »
Here's a nice link with history and photos of copper used by native americans. rick B

http://copperculture.homestead.com/

Offline leapingbare

  • Member
  • Posts: 2,028
    • http://www.flintknappers.com/jessewright/
Re: cheaters blanks?
« Reply #14 on: November 30, 2011, 10:26:16 pm »
The only problem i see with slab knapping is that if its all you do then your going to handicap you knapping skills. Also i can tell by looking at a blade or point that was knapped from a 1/4 inch slab, that it was knapped from a 1/4 inch slab with out knowing it came from a slab 90% of the time.
 I learned how to knap all abo and did it for years. I have been useing copper tools for the past 5 or 6 years but can still make a good point all abo. I also knap slabs from time to time. most of the slabs i knap are about 3/4 of a inch thick so i still use percussion on them. I do not injoy knapping 1/4 inch slabs but thats just me. I think it takes to long.
 To get perfect flake scare patern on a pont is all about the cross section. The easiest wat to achieve a flawless crosssection is to grind it in and then flake over the grind also known a FOG or flake over grind. But with a little know how you can get the same results with out useing FOG. Evon with a grund preform it takes a lot of skill to get those perfict flakes.
 It takes tons of rock and a passion for the (art) of flint knapping to become proficient at it.
Good luck on your journey and have fun!
Mililani Hawaii