Basic tillering / weight question...

[MWirwicki]

Lee:  Bring your bow to Marshall.  As of your posting,  you have about a 68 + pound bow. 2-3 lbs seems to be my experience.  Bring it, we'll get your weight.

[Del the cat]

@ DCM4
I'm sure your technique works well for you, I'd just respectfully suggest it's an 'advanced' technique rather than a 'basic' one.
I feel trying to juggle weight and length at the same time is beyond the relative beginer.
You are doubtless right to some extent, and I'm sure many of us won't pull quite the full poundage early on, say 5-10 pounds low, but bear in mind an unbraced tillering string isn't actually exerting full poundage anyway!
I feel that trying to project right down to the low draw lengths and weights is unwise if one isn't really confident with the process.
Del

[DCM4]

Del,

"I'm sure your technique works well for you,"

You don't sound very convincing, if you are sure.

"I'd just respectfully suggest it's an 'advanced' technique rather than a 'basic' one."

And I'd respectfully agree, having written just that in my post.  But I think it has merit just in the consideration of it, if not in practice.

"I feel trying to juggle weight and length at the same time is beyond the relative beginer."

Please clarify.  What does one "juggle" when tillering.  It's simply a matter of looking at the scale, after determining by one mechanism or another the target draw weight at a particular draw lenght.  Do you mean the math is beyond the capacity of the relative beginner?

"You are doubtless right to some extent,"

To some extent...  Why the qualification?  You either have done it and proven it to have merit or not, or have not tried it.

"...bear in mind an unbraced tillering string isn't actually exerting full poundage anyway!"

I didn't see read anything about this bow being tillered with a long string!  But I confess my intuition based on the pictures was he'd achieved the braced bow, tillering with a short string... hopefully at a low brace height.  And if not, he's already off the rails if he's tillered to 37# @ 16" using a long string.  Why is this relevant to the discussion, at this point anyway?  Is he still on the long string, do you assume he is?  But I'd agree, tillering with a long string wouldl give higher than accurate draw weight (from stack) and usually produce a whip tillered bow if taken too far.

"I feel that trying to project right down to the low draw lengths and weights is unwise if one isn't really confident with the process."

Why would one not be confident of the process, in particular when he hasn't followed and adopted a particular process yet anyway and is asking for suggestions?  Perhaps you are not confident with the process, and assume he should not be or is not. 

Just out of curiosity, after 40 years of bowyering (I'd read on your website) have you not heard this idea suggested before now?  Do you (chrono) test?  Frequently?  Carefully, as with a shooting machine?  What kinda cast do your bows make?  Do you care?

I realize my tone is perhaps harse.  There is rhyme to my reason, other than just being belligerent, which believe it or not I am not.  Rather I'm indifferent wrt to your preferences but very interested that others, in particular new guys, have opportunity to hear and entertain ideas without being influenced by folks entrenched in their own methods or dogma in such a way as to as to discourage or discount them, from my pov without justification.  I'd imagine you see it the same way, although obviously in justification of your own preferences.

[Del the cat]

I unreservedly oppologise. You seem to have taken offense at my post. Non was intended.
What I was trying to say is I may have oversimplified my explanation of the tillering process in an attempt to be helpful.
I agree with your analysis that drawing to full draw weight from the start may overstrain the wood slightly and thus sacrifice some performance.
I did not mean to be argumentative and have no wish to argue.
Del

[DCM4]

Now I gotta most unreservedly apologize.  No offense taken, and none offered.  I'm just tickled we got to where I'd hoped.  I'm much sympathetic to the difficulty of explanation (of tiller, et.al.) in the attempt to be helpful, herein being the relative bull in the china chop.

I see your point wrt to taking the estimate right down to the first inch of draw.  It's just an estimate. 

Take care.

David

[George Tsoukalas]

High, Dcm, you stirrin' it up again? LOL. To use the technique Del outlined above one has to really make sure the limbs are bending well and those are not. Supposition #1...get the limbs bending well before pulling to max draw. Supposition#2..never pull anymore than it takes to expose a problem. Supposition #3 ... work the stave at sort pulls after  removal sessions to let the changes register. If you don't you you'll be playing catch up with one limb and then the other as the changes register. Next post problems with above stave. Jawge

[Justin Snyder]

I do it like Del says here:

No no no no no! Don't work on the 2 pounds per inch thing .
It's just a useful guide when you are very near draw or you are wondering what will happen if you pull your 40#@28" bow back to 31" (assuming it doesn't goe BANG)
I you want to hit 56# at 26 then you have to hit 56 @ 16" first, then 56 @ 17", then 56@18" etc whilst trying to get the tiller perfect  and maintain it as you slowly get it back all the way to 56 at about 24" then you stop and finish it and shoot it and fancy it up and you'll probably find you've lost a couple of pounds and gained a couple of inches and all of a sudden you are spot on your target weight. Do it like that and you have some chance of getting there.

If you work it out to say 37 @ 17 even with perfect tiller and then pull it back to 28, you'll proabably find the tiller is a mile out.
If you take a finished bow of 56@28 and measure it at 17... it may well be 37 or whatever...but this is hindsight, you can't do it the other way round (IMO)
Del

I am no Steve Gardner, and I don't hold any flight bow records, but I can make a bow with pretty good cast. I also feel that a bow built this way is a lot more stable than a bow that is not drawn and worked as it is built. Having said that, you got some pretty good advice on tiller, and I would fix the slight problems as best you can before you draw any farther. That may mean you are 10# below the target weight, but good tiller is more important. If you get the tiller spot on at 15" and are 10 pounds below the target weight you don't have to worry because you can get some of that back as you draw farther. Next you will draw to 16" and pull it a bunch of times while watching the tiller. If it stays good, move to 17". You really NEED to pull it a bunch of times each time you pull farther because it helps to reveal changes in the wood. By pulling once it may look good, but pulling it 20 times might start to reveal a weak spot in the limb. If you pull once and move on then pull once and move on, you might go 6 inches only to pull once and have a massive hinge show up and do irreparable damage to the bow.
 
Some may disagree, and that is fine by me. I have made my share of great shooters, and blown up plenty of bows too. I think you will find this a more reliable method and the preferred method of a lot of top bowyers.

[George Tsoukalas]

Both limbs need to bend close to the handle. I would start the bending at the end of each fade. That's a personal reference.  The knotted area has to worked with care. Let the knotted area  be stiff. But the wood before and after needs to bend. Next post I'll outline how I approach the weight issue in keeping with Suppositions 1, 2 and 3. Jawge

[blackhawk]

A lot of great advice being discussed here. I like the way George stated it in simple layman's terms for a beginner to understand,he nailed it on the head.

[George Tsoukalas]

Thanks, Blackhawk. The easiest method is to pull to target weight as soon as the limbs are bending well...pretty perfectly actually as they will be under much strain. My advice is follow the suppositions I outlined in my first post. I used to tiller that way but don't anymore. Credit goes to Jim Fetrow for this. My bows seen to gain 3# per inch. So I get the limbs bending well asap.  That's not always easy but that is the goal. I have a 26 in draw. Let's say I want a 50# bow which is what I like. I go for low 40's for # at 20 in. and then as i approach 25 in I want 50 # or my target weight. I stop and shoot it 2-3 doz times, check tiller and finish sand. Note I never hit target weight until 1 in from my draw.  Jawge

[Lee Slikkers]

Wow, you folks really put up some seriously good information and how-to's...I've read through this a number of times and feel I could still use a few dozen more looks at it all.  I also really appreciate the fact that despite differing views, opinions and beliefs everyone kept there head in the game and their eye on the prise.  I sure wish a few dozen of you lived just down the road  but you'll all be happy you don't as i'd be there waiting on your doorstep on a regular basis.

Anyway, after reading and trying to digest all of the suggestions and help on my tillering issues I couldn't help but go down to the "Dungeon" and work on her tonight...here she is #56 @ 26"



Time for some slight finish sanding.  There aren't really many tool marks since it's been fine toothed rasp (love the Shinto Rasp) scraper and 220 grit.  Need to mull over some thoughts on finishing off the tips/nocks and handle/wrap considerations.  Likely going to leave her colors alone and skip any dye job as I'd really hate to muff it up at this stage...

Thanks~

[mullet]

I basically do it the way George does, but I don't exercise the limbs as much as everybody else does. I think that with the drastic temperature and humidity change we get here during the day it changes the wood too much. So I pull on the tiller tree to the target weight, mark the trouble spots, and unstring it and tiller it some more. When I hit the weight, then I'll shoot, tiller, and fine tune it. It works for me, but maybe not for everybody else.

[mullet]

You posted when I did, then I saw you picture. The tiller looks good, but I got a little pucker looking at the limb on the right. You almost have a hinge at the bend coming out of the Fade on the right. Don't touch that area. And I'd remove just a tad about 6" from the tip on the left limb.

[johnston]

Like I said before these guys are good. I did not notice what Eddie saw til I read his post but now I do.

Lee you ever wonder how they got so educated on the the tillering art? Reckon they have built a few?

Bow looks sweet btw.

Lane

[SEMO_HUNTER]

Lee I don't really have any more to add, these guys have already covered any advice I could have given. Just wanted to say I'm glad to see ya working some wood. The only way to learn is to start making some shavings, pay attention to what your doing, go slow and take your time, keep notes on your mistakes so you don't repeat them. That's the best advice I have to offer and if this one doesn't turn out perfect the way you want it to then just pass it along to someone who needs a bow and start on another. Nice job!