Author Topic: Spine consideration for war arrows  (Read 36693 times)

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Offline Pat B

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Re: Spine consideration for war arrows
« Reply #15 on: June 16, 2007, 12:52:42 am »
I rummaged through my hardwood shoots and came up with a privet shoot(Ligustrum japonicum) that is 36" long. For some all of the larger hardwood shoots I have(no matter the species) have an oval cross section...so this privet shoot is 36" long, 5/8-1/2" at the pile end and 3/8-7/16 at the nock end. As it stands, fairly well seasoned with the bark removed, this shoot weighs 1356 grains... or just over 3 ozs. I have a hand forged round "bodkin" type point that weighs about 570 grs. This was made by a local blacksmith in 5 minutes from his own imagination.
   I will work on straightening this privet shoot, cutting it to length and see how it will work as a war arrow. I have goose feathers(Canada) and red silk thread! I'm good to go!!! ;D    Pat

ps. I do need an arrow for a bow I can't shoot. ::)
Make the most of all that comes and the least of all that goes!    Pat Brennan  Brevard, NC

Offline Pat B

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Re: Spine consideration for war arrows
« Reply #16 on: June 16, 2007, 01:09:30 am »
I forgot to post the pics so here are a couple.....     Pat

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Make the most of all that comes and the least of all that goes!    Pat Brennan  Brevard, NC

Lloyd

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Re: Spine consideration for war arrows
« Reply #17 on: June 16, 2007, 03:09:44 pm »
sounds like it's time to get out the plane or the shurform and do a little shoot reduction

DBernier

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Re: Spine consideration for war arrows
« Reply #18 on: June 16, 2007, 09:00:44 pm »
Hey Pat, I got the Bodkin points the other day and started on an arrow. The heads weigh between 20 and 26 Grams (300 to 400 grains). The top shaft with the head is 7/16 doweling with an 11 inch tapper to 3/8 inch. The shaft is 35 1/4 inch's long and weighs 1000 grains with no feathers. Hint, Hint, Hint   ;D    It is spined to 100#. The bottom shaft is Oak, 36 inch's long and weighs 1050 grains in the raw. I picked up some 3/8 dia. Oak shafts today and will see how they work out. Now I need a 100# bow. Hey if you got any spare white goose feathers, lets trade.

Dick Bernier
Mebane NC

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Rod

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Re: Spine consideration for war arrows
« Reply #19 on: August 07, 2007, 12:23:17 pm »
Ash and asp (poplar) were much used, though the poplar used then  (most likely Black Poplar which is almost extinct hereabouts) is not the same as the poplar in current use.
For a heavy shaft ash is good and poplar probably better for a flighting shaft than ash.
Another good option for the heavy shaft would he hornbeam. It should be noted that Ascham cites a number of shaft materials of which Ash and Asp are merely the most commonly used.

For a heavy shaft hornbeam is probably superior to ash in weight at a given dimension and was very common as a coppiced wood in parts of the country, having many "industrial" uses.

On the whole I think it likely that for mass production planing shafts from straight grained wood might be a more productive process than gathering and straightening shoot shafts.

As for spine, as long as stiffness is sufficient that the shaft will "stand in the bow" then it is not too critical.
Lets face it, at full draw you will not be looking down the shaft anyway, unless you are strong enough to anchor low enough to get your eye behind the string.
Otherwise your eye to mark and through the shaft to the mark are two separate and converging lines.
The aim will always consist of an intuitive allwance for offset, so having an arrow that shoots a little stiff is of little consequence, though it might be useful is the arrows were a reasonable match to each other.

Rod.
« Last Edit: September 07, 2007, 01:08:46 pm by Rod »

duffontap

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Re: Spine consideration for war arrows
« Reply #20 on: August 07, 2007, 01:26:44 pm »
Good post Rod.  The English war arrows were also designed in such a way that spine matered less.  Large diameter provided sufficient stiffness for most arrow woods, the taper kept the vibration down, the FOC way forward and long, low fletchings provided adequate drag to right the arrows. 

Another thing to consider is that English Warbows shot arrows at very high speeds (well over 200 fps was probably common or even slow) so less fletching was required to stabilize the arrow.  (It is a general principle of aerodynamics that the drag increases as the speed increases.  Thus, a faster arrow needs less fletching to right itself.  This is why slow arrows tend to wobble in flight and fast ones tend to fly like darts). 


         J. D. Duff

Len

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Re: Spine consideration for war arrows
« Reply #21 on: August 07, 2007, 05:54:51 pm »
J.D. never knew that about wobbly arrows but know I know why my arrows that wobbled out of my 50lb ELB shoot fine out of the 66lber I made.

duffontap

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Re: Spine consideration for war arrows
« Reply #22 on: August 07, 2007, 06:47:33 pm »
J.D. never knew that about wobbly arrows but know I know why my arrows that wobbled out of my 50lb ELB shoot fine out of the 66lber I made.

Len,

There can be a lot of reasons why arrows wobble (yaw or porpoise) through the air but there is a tendency for fast arrows to have smoother flight and slower arrows to have more tuning issues.  You never stop learning with this hobby--or is it a fascination...

              J. D.

duffontap

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Re: Spine consideration for war arrows
« Reply #23 on: August 08, 2007, 03:39:23 pm »

Another thing to consider is that English Warbows shot arrows at very high speeds (well over 200 fps was probably common or even slow)

         J. D. Duff

That sounds a little dumb.  What I meant to say was speeds over 200 fps was probably the norm and 200 fps may even have been slow at the height of the warbow.  At any rate, the arrows traveled much faster, on average, that what we are used to with hunting and target bows.   :)

           J. D.

SimonUK

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Re: Spine consideration for war arrows
« Reply #24 on: August 08, 2007, 05:53:07 pm »
I didn't know that JD.  I always thought that the arrows were quite slow but with high momentum due to their weight.  If they were heavy and fast, the performance of those bows must have been amazing.

Glennan

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Re: Spine consideration for war arrows
« Reply #25 on: August 10, 2007, 01:02:04 pm »
From "The Great Warbow" by Hardy & Strickland:

Arrow:  John Holder Challenge Cup specification arrow (31.5", 2.6oz, 8.5" x 0.75" fletches)

Bow: 150lb @ 32"

Initial velocity: 189.7 ft/s
Impact velocity: 147.3 ft/s

Initial KE: 124J
Impact KE: 75J

Average Range: 282 yards

(Highest velocity: BLBS 'Standard' Arrow shot off 150lb bow - 232 ft/s)

Offline Badger

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Re: Spine consideration for war arrows
« Reply #26 on: August 13, 2007, 03:59:44 am »
The performance of the bow posted above is outstanding, on a grains per pound comparison about the same as a very well made american longbow. I figured the kinetic energy upon release a bit lower though at about 91ft#'s. Still excellent.Steve

SimonUK

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Re: Spine consideration for war arrows
« Reply #27 on: August 13, 2007, 05:45:23 pm »
I'm sure there's something wrong with those figures.  The mass of the arrow doesn't change, therefore shouldn't the kinetic energy be proportional to its velocity? Therefore 147.3/189.7 should equal 75/124 but it doesn't. Where's Gino when we need him?

Offline Badger

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Re: Spine consideration for war arrows
« Reply #28 on: August 13, 2007, 06:42:20 pm »
Simon, velocity squared times mass divided by 450240= kinetic energy
189X189X1138 grains divided by 450240=90.2 ft#'s kinetic energy
147X147X1138 grains divided by 450240=54.6 ft#'s kinetic energy

SimonUK

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Re: Spine consideration for war arrows
« Reply #29 on: August 13, 2007, 07:36:33 pm »
I knew I should have looked up the formula before I opened my mouth  :-[