Full draw pictures

[Pappy]

I agree with Frank,I think if you post them they should be considered.I like eye candy but they must also perform.I can promise if it don't perform I wouldn't post it.I with Gordon I think all the extras help make the bow.Yes it must be tillered right to get my vote but it also needs to be pleasing to the eye.As far as someone winning more than once,I think if the people think it is the best bow for the month is should win no matter how many time they have won before.Just my opinion. There are to many great bowyers here to take them out just because they won.Keep um coming Gordon !!!!
   Pappy

[medicinewheel]

seems cool telling opinions around here...!!!

so here comes mine: may the best win, right?!

and if the best is the same guy 12 X's per year, that's perfectly fine with me i'd say!

"Was your last winning bow truly exceptional work for you? Or was it just another well crafted bow that looked pretty?"
... well: i posted this bow but hey it's just another well-crafted bow that does look pretty but even if it might be better crafted and prettier then other bows posted here it may not be truly exceptional work for me so you better don't vote for it if it shows up on BOM ... 
dana, if you win BOM one day and 2 month later you made a better bow (or prettier bow...and you probably would...) it would be a loss for all of us if you didn't post it or if it was banned from BOM for whatever reason.
if we all had the chance too shoot every bow on BOM (which i think would be fun for the archers/bowyers but maybe not fun for the bows) we STILL would have MANY different opinions, wouldn't we: one likes bendy handles the other don't, one likes short draw, the other don't, one likes snakeskins the other don't (and nobody would shoot the bows blind-folded, right??)
we had  so many beautifull bows on last month's BOM, many had winning potential, missing one of them for whatever posting/voting restrictions would not make any sence to me at all.
(btw: siouxman made a good point asking why a sinew-backed bow is not considdered a backed bow)

...and i'd say it's just BOM not brain surgery!

cheers, frank

[MattE]

The concerns expressed by others here are the same as mine. I don't see how any one can judge a bow by a picture? I have had the good fortune to shoot bows made by DMC, Badger, Rod Parson and a few more PA members. All were fine shooting bows.None of the bows were highly decorated but were masterpieces in my eyes and proven to be when handled.I have made many a bow myself but I have never entered one for the BOM.The true character of a bow can't be judged over a forum. This is my excuse.I also know that some bows summited for BOM are superb and as good as they get, but there will always be doubt until you put them to the test..... No amount of rouge and lip stick will make a bow shoot well but it will garner votes. 

[DanaM]

I wish more people would post pics of their bows good, bad, and ugly. Each bow has its story and we can all learn something from each one.
Their are many on this forum that never post any bows. I'm sure some of us novices are intimated by most of you guys and feel that posting a pic of their
bow isn't worth the effort, especially when many of you view the pics and don't bother with a reply! It only takes a second to offer some constructive
advice or a job well done. Just because the bow ain't pretty doesn't mean that its not an effective weapon. I've only been a member of this forum for about 6 months
but I have jumped in with both feet so to speak, no lurking for me. I post pics of my bows  because I want your opinion good or bad. I don't take any offense and don't mean to offend anyone when I voice my opinion. As far as the BOM contest goes its Don's show he can run it any way he choses, I just wish more people would vote
and look beyond the obvious.
So have I put my foot in my mouth yet again? 

[Badger]

Dana, one thing I have noticed in the last couple of years is less constructive critisism (spelling?) I might see a bow that is 90% good with just one item I feel is worthy of a critical comment, I have seen others chastised and experienced it myself for making critical comments. I kind of like a tougher more honest approach to commenting, say the good and the bad. I don't know of anyone here who's heart is not in the right palce when they critique a bow. Sometimes you will see a new commers first bow, he is proud as a pea cock and rightfully so. But the bow might be awful. I think a healthy critique is a better way to go along with congrats that the bow itself didn't break. These discussions that come here once in a while I think are good things, Steve

[Gordon]

Badger I agree with you to an extent, however, when you are a novice building a bow that simply shoots and stays together is a feat in itself and worth celebrating. I look back at some of my first works and I just shudder now, but I am glad folks were measured in their criticism because I needed all the encouragement I could get to work my way through a long string of failed attempts. I’m not saying that we don’t point out obvious flaws like hinges, uneven tiller, inappropriate designs, etc. But some elements just take time to develop and should be encouraged in a positive manner (IMO). As for those of us who can no longer claim novice status, have at it – no diplomacy is necessary.

Dana, well said.

[Hillbilly]

When I post a bow, I want and expect honest feedback, that's how I learn things that I didn't know before. I have seen a couple people get ticked off about constructive criticism of their bows, but that is quite rare- I think that most people are like me, and would like for someone who is more experienced to point out ways that we can improve our future bows.

[DanaM]

Badger and Gordon glad ya didn't take offense at any of my comments. I made a criticiism of someones bow once and it got
ugly for a while but in the end we became friends and message each other to see whats new and such. If we all saw eye to eye on everything
it wouldn't be much of a forum now would it? I've said it before when I post pics of bow, have at me, don't be derogoatory but feel free to driticize
my bow. One other thing many of you when ya first started had the opportunity to train with an accomplised bowyer, thats like starting out school in 10th grade
most of us have to wing it thru books, internet and trial and error, makes it much tougher. Many of us also make due with what we can get cheap or free. fer instance where I live there is no osage, yew, ERC, mulberry, locust, elm, rattlesnakes, knappable rock, no primitive archer clubs or shoots etc. Don't own land to cut wood and its illegal to cut on state or federal land and don't have lots of disposable income to spend. I have to say that I have gotten some freebee's from folks on here with the promise of returning the favor down the road. And I much appreciate the generousity. I also have sent some items to folks without asking for anything in return. But realisticly try getting someone to tarde ya some osage for maple I've been to the other forum sites and this is the best of the rest, a nice place to be with good folks.
Thanks for reading my ramblings eh.

Dana

[duffontap]

Great thread everybody.  I keep getting ready to post and end up deleting my message.  Here's another attempt. 

Gordon,

One reason why people have advocated limiting the number of wins is because this is a relatively subjective competition and the best bow doesn't necessarily win every month (or any month).  You have won more times than anyone else so far but I have only seen one bow of yours that had a truly right-angled photo of the tiller--that was the first bow you won with.  In most cases you are photographed with a natural, slightly-cated, slightly angled photo.  You can tiller, so I'm not criticising that, but I am saying you could give the afficianados of bow design a chance to really pick apart the tiller with a perfect right-angled shot or a tillering tree shot.  Another thing is, you're ambush bow was a dominant winner last month, but why?  Most of us know that the ambush design depends on high early draw weight to perform well and 2" of set would put this bow in 'below average' category as far as performance goes.  You admitted yourself that you had made the bow too narrow--so--it wasn't properly designed.  Other than the design problems you mentioned and the below-average performance, your bow was perfect. 

I love your bows but I thought I should balance out the praise with the reality that even your bows are subject to legitimate criticism. 

                   J. D. Duff

[medicinewheel]

yes, this IS a great thread!

[NOMADIC PIRATE]

Don't think eye candy will win you BOM anyway, put snake skins, beautifull handle on a badly crafted/tillered bow, it still won't go the distance, too many talented bowyers here to be fooled.

Pappy's snake bow, would have won even without the skins because it basicaly was a great example of crafmanship and tillering exellence.


As for, "how can you judge bow from pictures alone ?" .....c'mon, of course it would be better to have a panel of judges shooting them, but is it feasable ?

BOM is a great little friendy contest  ( I used to love checking and dreaming of BOM's when I first subscribed to P.A. ) and I think it's just fine as it is,...only I belive you should give us rookys a couplle of points to start with

Agree with Steve, I'd like to see a bit more criticism from the obious top bowyers that lurk on this forum, I'd like to have some of that mixed in with the praises, there's somting to learn with each bow, and for people that take it the wrong way,...well to bad for them  , Good point Hillbilly and Gordon, as a variation on the subject.

[DanaM]

Thanks JD, thats a good obsevation and reinforces my belief that alot of people vote based on eye candy appeal.
If it looks pretty it must be a great bow. Take koans recent post "My Ugly Bow" its very nicely tillered but nothing fancy about it no skins,
no fancy colors but by no means an ugly bow. I don't post a bow specifically to be in the BOM but I'm sure some do.
I think we all need to take a second look before we cast a vote.

[Badger]

That was a good post JD, sounded a little harsh at first but you made excellent points. When it comes to the old timers I think we should be ruthless with one another LOL. When it comes to newbees take into consideration the time they have been building bows. I often vote for relatively new bowyers because I see a lot of improvement. We can vote based on our own criteria rather than one layed down by a format, this is a good thing. I like to post bows that make some kind of a point because I am usually experimenting with some particular aspect of a bow. I used to even post bows that didn't work out to well and then try to explore why they didn't. I view this forum as a show and tell as well as an online workshop. I do think that a sidenote such as "not for b.o.m" is a good idea for Don.  Great thread you guys. Steve

[Gordon]

JD, I agree with your assessment of my ambush bow - it followed the string too much to qualify as an exceptional bow (IMO). I thought I made that clear in my narative, but folks voted for it anyway. Your point about my F/D shots not being perfectly straight on is well taken - I'll work on that.

[Pat B]

The moderators have been discussing this matter for a while and our main concern is that the folks that would benefit the most from posting pics of their bows would be the new guys on the block that are learning our craft. These are the folks we want to encourage and help so they can produce a bow(s) that they are proud of. By entering a full draw pic, you automatically are elegable for BOM consideration. It is my feeling that everyone should post pics of their bows and be ready for the suggestions and criticisms that will help make them better bowyers.
  BOM is decided by us, the members of the PA website. We each have a vote and we each vote for the bow(and sometimes the bowyer) we like the best, for whatever reason. I can't imaging that Gordon is stacking the deck by sending out $10 bills to everyone that votes for his bows. He is getting the votes fairly and squarely and I have no problem with that. I just don't want new folks to think that they are not good enough to post bows. That is how we, as bowyers, become better bowyers...by constructive criticism and example and accepting it in the manner that it was meant to be taken.
   I don't post bows with expectations of winning BOM. I have won twice(which amazed me) and each time I have a bow(s) for consideration, I check the results constantly to see where I stand in the runnings and I am pleased with every vote I get but getting few or no votes doesn't discourage me. If anything it encourages me to do better the next time and IMO that is what BOM should be all about.
   So please, everyone submit your bows for remarks, criticism and to find out what you need to do next with your project, if that is the case, and if you do not want your bow considered for BOM, simply writh" NO BOM" in your title so Don will know not to consider your bow for BOM,  but you will still get the help or criticisms you are looking for from this wonderful group of folks.   Pat