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Author Topic: Molle's and holmy's?  (Read 7859 times)

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Offline Stiks-N-Strings

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Molle's and holmy's?
« on: March 29, 2011, 10:08:37 pm »
What is the difference between the two. From what I can tell from all the pics and everything I've looked I can't see the difference. Other than where they where found.

 Am I missing something.

 I'm building a molle out of a piece of hackberry. Sinew backed it last night and put some copperheads on it today. Can't hardly stand leaving it set to wait on the sinew to cure.
 
 Stiks
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Offline Lee Slikkers

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Re: Molle's and holmy's?
« Reply #1 on: March 29, 2011, 10:21:44 pm »
Stiks, sorry...can't answer your question BUT you can't just mention progress on a cool bow and not drop in at least a pic or two  ;D
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~ Lee

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Offline Stiks-N-Strings

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Re: Molle's and holmy's?
« Reply #2 on: March 29, 2011, 10:26:04 pm »
Lee, NO WAY on the pics, the last two bows I posted pics of before they where done blew up on me. Both Yew staves and they are hard to come by in these parts. I think it was bad joo joo LOL

 No pics till it's done, sorry.

 Stiks
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learned a great deal many things during my absence the last few years,
True friends are rare and priceless.
You always think it won’t happen to you, well it can it will. Such is life, it ain't fair and shows no indifference. Enjoy it anyway

Offline ErictheViking

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Re: Molle's and holmy's?
« Reply #3 on: March 29, 2011, 10:29:32 pm »
http://www.perinnejousi.fi/keskustelu/files/mollegabet_bow_435.jpg    this is a mollegabet
http://images.yuku.com/image/jpeg/46036d2e10790b5b308c1c96211f6633afc656ae.jpg  this is a holmegard.  the confusion occurred when the tbb1(I beleive) identified the mollegabet as a holmegard.  One of the sceintists who had studied both and is a bowyer(j.j.junkman I believe) submitted a post on pp that corrected the issue. I dont know if he was the first to raise the issue but its the first that I know of.
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Offline sailordad

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Re: Molle's and holmy's?
« Reply #4 on: March 29, 2011, 10:33:22 pm »
not sure
but i think the mollegabet design  is older than the holmegard design
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Offline Lee Slikkers

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Re: Molle's and holmy's?
« Reply #5 on: March 29, 2011, 10:34:36 pm »
Fair enough Stiks...I certainly wouldn't want to be the bringer of bad luck by asking you to post so I'll retract my request in hopes that even the faintest wisps of bad joo joo blow right through town.  Plus, I'm a sucker for Yew and would give my left eye tooth to play with some so I can only imagine your pain.

Look forward to see the full draw shots when it's completed!
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~ Lee

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The last word in ignorance is the man who says of an animal or plant: 'What good is it?"
— Aldo Leopold
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Offline Stiks-N-Strings

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Re: Molle's and holmy's?
« Reply #6 on: March 29, 2011, 11:49:31 pm »
should finish up next week Lee. depends on how the sinew looks.

 Thanks for the info guys. seems to be alot of confusion on this issue.

 Stiks
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learned a great deal many things during my absence the last few years,
True friends are rare and priceless.
You always think it won’t happen to you, well it can it will. Such is life, it ain't fair and shows no indifference. Enjoy it anyway

Offline okie64

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Re: Molle's and holmy's?
« Reply #7 on: March 30, 2011, 01:01:25 am »
 I've had really bad luck posting pics before the bow is done too. I wont do that again, maybe I'm a little superstitious but it just works out better for me too.
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Offline Stiks-N-Strings

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Re: Molle's and holmy's?
« Reply #8 on: March 30, 2011, 01:05:12 am »
Okie I never had that problem til late. Usually I break'em before I even get pics ;D It just occurred to me a few days ago I was counting my chickens before the hatch LOL
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learned a great deal many things during my absence the last few years,
True friends are rare and priceless.
You always think it won’t happen to you, well it can it will. Such is life, it ain't fair and shows no indifference. Enjoy it anyway

Offline medicinewheel

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Re: Molle's and holmy's?
« Reply #9 on: March 30, 2011, 04:50:49 am »
Quote from: sailordad on March 29, 2011, 10:33:22 pm
not sure
but i think the mollegabet design  is older than the holmegard design

No, for sure not, the Holmegaard is the older one. (by two thousand years I believe)
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Frank from Germany...

Offline Holten101

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Re: Molle's and holmy's?
« Reply #10 on: March 30, 2011, 05:02:20 am »
The difference between a Holmegård and a Møllegabet is a much discussed subject. Both artefacts are from denmark; the Holmegård bow (6500-7000 B.C) is a complete bow (two bows actually...one which is incomlete iirc) and the Møllegabet bow (5250-5070 B.C) which consists of a mid/outer limb section.

The holmegård is (in my oppinion) a pretty straight forward pyramid bow:

The shoulder (ONLY one limb has what might be inferrede to be a shoulder) is so insignificant that I would hesitate to call it a defining design characteristic...it did not have true, stiff levers. The shoulder on one limb could have been made for a number of reasons....but the second bow also have a narrow outer limb, which leads me to belive its intentional at least. I have no doubt that this functionally was a pyramid bow...maybe tillered to have slightly stiff outer limbs (reconstructions indicates this)

The Møllegabet is a true lever tipped bow (IF its is a bow....I belive it is):

Admitted...it could have been asymetrical, but there is little doubt that the preserved outer limb was none-workning.

Normally the name "Holmgård" is used about lever tipped bows...I belive that is incorrect;-)

Cheers
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Offline Little John

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Re: Molle's and holmy's?
« Reply #11 on: March 30, 2011, 09:50:10 am »
The Holmie bows did not follow a groth ring on the back and were backward bows with rised handls on the backs, don't know about the Mollies.     Kenneth
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Offline ken75

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Re: Molle's and holmy's?
« Reply #12 on: March 30, 2011, 01:15:57 pm »
thank you Holten101, well presented !!
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Offline Acutus

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Re: Molle's and holmy's?
« Reply #13 on: March 30, 2011, 01:51:34 pm »
I totally agree with Ken! Thanks Holten!

Stiks thanks for asking the question too as I was wondering the same thing. It seems these names get interchanged a lot.
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Offline Holten101

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Re: Molle's and holmy's?
« Reply #14 on: March 30, 2011, 03:51:06 pm »
Quote from: Little John on March 30, 2011, 09:50:10 am
The Holmie bows did not follow a groth ring on the back and were backward bows with rised handls on the backs, don't know about the Mollies.     Kenneth

Hi Little John
That is how it is represented in TBB, but it is not correct. The bows (I can only confirm the Holmegård artefact...since I have only seen that in person) have natural backs (i.e the outer growth ring underneath the barch is the back.

I raised the question on a danish bow builders forum when I read the miss-interpretation of he bow in TBB, and got this interesting reply:

"Hi Holten,

I translated parts of TBB 2 into German, also the contribution of Paul Comstock about the prehistoric bows of Europe, the German version is available under www.bogenschiessen.de. I´ve seen the original bow before and was - like you - very surprised by Pauls theory of the "backward bow". After talking to the German editors I contacted Paul, and we exchanged some transatlantic mails. We - especially Paul - found out then, that a fatal error happened to him while reading archaeological drawings. European Archaeologists draw objects in a different way than woodworkers will. Woodworkers draw four views, rolling the object clockwise on the ground, archaeologists draw 4 views flipping the object over the edge anti-clockwise, so that drawn view and the edge of the next view are positioned near each other. If you compare this to the drawn cross section and misinterprete the way of changing the view, you may come to the conclusion, that the belly of the bow is the back. Paul was very unhappy about this, but we decided to leave the translation of his contribution without corrections, and we added some remarks by him making clear that he was mistaken. Your - and my - way of building holmegaards is and will be the right one. I wrote to Paul - who has never seen the Danish elm bows personally - that I could have made the same mistake while writing about the flat bows of the American plains indians without ever having one in my hand. You may call this the "Karl-May-syndrom", Karl May was a very famous German author who had written a lot of books about the Wild West and Arabia without ever having left his home town.

Mvh

ULFR"


I hope this clears out some missunderstandings:-)

Cheers
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