Author Topic: Just for the record  (Read 9392 times)

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Offline Badger

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Just for the record
« on: May 15, 2007, 01:46:05 am »
       I have heard several references to my mass method as being "high tec" or generated by some form of math. Just for the record the mass method was developed 100% by making bows and taking notes. For the last 10 years neary everyday several hours shop tie actually building and testing wood bows. Zero time figuring math models or computerizing. I just found that using demensions would not work as well for me as just finding out how much wood I had to work with and how much wood I needed for the design i was using. The mass formula in most cases gives conservative demensions that still require every bit of skill the bowyer can muster to pull off properly. It will also allow bow builders with shorter draws to build bows that will perform nearly as well as their longer drawing brothers. Nothing high tech about it, I just traded a tape measure for a scale. Steve

Offline GregB

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Re: Just for the record
« Reply #1 on: May 15, 2007, 08:53:49 am »
Steve, I appreciate the amount of time and effort you've put into it. I think it is a good tool for those that want to use it to compare their finished bows to. Maybe if a bow comes in heavier then it should by your method, the bowyer can study the bow and ask himself the question where he might have had to much mass in certain area's such as the tips.

Not everyone is going to want to use your method, nothing wrong with that. Bows that come in much heavier then your method, doesn't mean that they're not a quality bow. Each of us are individuals, and have different levels of satisfaction. Your method makes me think...that's an accomplishment in itself! ;D
Greg

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MattE

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Re: Just for the record
« Reply #2 on: May 15, 2007, 09:59:45 am »
Steve , you explained in writing what a bow maker has to do to get the right answer. Mass does dictate dimensions. The primitive peoples of the world knew this in their own way.I wouldn't worry about what others think.

Offline Marc St Louis

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Re: Just for the record
« Reply #3 on: May 15, 2007, 10:30:49 am »
Steve
It's an excellent method to teach new bowyers how to make high performance bows, or experienced bowyers to.
Home of heat-treating, Corbeil, On.  Canada

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Offline Justin Snyder

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Re: Just for the record
« Reply #4 on: May 15, 2007, 11:01:16 am »
I LIKE IT!  Like others have said.  The theory has been in use for probably as long as bow making.  If you make a white wood bow you make it wider. An osage you make narrower.  You have provided the means for us to quit guessing on the width by calculating mass.  THANKS Justin
Everything happens for a reason, sometimes the reason is you made a bad decision.


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Offline Badger

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Re: Just for the record
« Reply #5 on: May 15, 2007, 11:55:07 am »
       Just based on some feed back I have gotten there is a couple things I wanted to point out. Getting lower mass than what it calls for is not neccessarily a good thing, a little heavier is often better than two light. Been doing a lot more experiments (making bows) with it the past couple of months since I was asked to write on it and have observed some interesting things. Been finding out that wider bows can often be lower in mass than narrow bows just because there are a lot of crushed wood cells when too narrow that can become dead weight. I kept trying to push my own bows below the weight for performance and it was backfiring on me..
     As far as everyone using it goes, thats not important who uses what, just with any method we come up with I hate to see it misrepresented or interpeted, or even worse I would hate to stear some one wrong in thinking that lowest possible mass is best. I had blamed poor performance on overbuilt bows for years and have found out that underbuilt is just as common if not more common. Ultra skinny tips and radical tillers don't make that much difference in performance, only maybe to a flight shooter where an extra few fps is needed. Just keeping your wood fresh and undamaged as possible by having enough wood working seems to give best results. This last couple years I have been working a lot of longer bows than I normally had in my past, I was making them too narrow to start off with and then wondering why they weren't performing, as they were low in mass. This is what forced me into connecting the dots on mass and length and draw length etc, and converting it into a formula of sorts.
        Another misconception is that somehow it takes some of the skill and imagination form the bowyer, I would say the opposite has to happen, it forces the bowyer to work at his highest level of skill he can muster and just provides some checks and ballances to check himself with as he progresses into a bow. Countless times I have been working on bows and really excited about their progress only to reach the 24" or 25" mark  and suddenly feel my brace height string tension to start dropping because I was asking too much from the amount of wood I had to work with. Using mass is just another tool to monitor progress in a bow and to help a bowyer avoid unneccessary damage to an otherwise successful bow.
      I did a little study on red oak bows a couple years ago, at that time my comfort zone for bows was 60" to 64", I knew what mass to expect in that length range. They ranged in width from 1 1/4" wide to 2" wide and all had about equal performance and equal mass. Thats a huge variation, but very common with a lot of wood species.  Steve

Offline Hillbilly

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Re: Just for the record
« Reply #6 on: May 15, 2007, 11:57:51 am »
Steve, I think it's a very interesting theory and design method that seems to be proving itself more thoroughly every time someone makes a bow and evaluates the mass and performance. I see nothing "high-tech" about it. You have arrived at your conclusions from making tons of shavings and being observant enough to notice things happening in the  bows that you're working on. I've learned a lot from listening to your observations over the years, and am glad that you share them with the rest of us. The only thing I've seen anywhere lately that I thought was a bit much was the Selfbow-designing computer program someone posted on PP awhile back. But that's just me-I'm not into designing primitive bows with computer programs myself, but if someone is, their opinion and ways of doing things are just as valid as mine. If I were you, I wouldn't worry about what anybody thinks. You can't please everybody or make everybody agree about everything. Keep up the good work.
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Offline Pappy

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Re: Just for the record
« Reply #7 on: May 15, 2007, 12:12:40 pm »
What Hillbilly said !!!! :)
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Offline DanaM

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Re: Just for the record
« Reply #8 on: May 15, 2007, 12:29:57 pm »
ditto what hillbilly said

Dana
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DCM

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Re: Just for the record
« Reply #9 on: May 15, 2007, 12:39:34 pm »
"You can't please everybody or make everybody agree about everything."

And if they did, nobody would learn anything.  I downloaded that program and could not figure out how to operate it.  I see it more as putting all the parameters in just to see how one influences the other.  Same thing we do in practice.  I have no interest in it's use to prescribe a formula.

I think it's ok to listen and understand what people think about your ideas, and correct or clarify when something is miscommunicated, mischaracterized or misunderstood.  I also think it's ok to ignore unsubstantiated or malicious criticisms though.

Hillbilly I've been running into your posts about botany, wood species and such as that.  Impressive.  Is that part of your vocation or just something you've an interest in. 

Offline Badger

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Re: Just for the record
« Reply #10 on: May 15, 2007, 12:52:16 pm »
David, using an ideal tillering method will be far superior to any formula. The formula is a bi-product of successfully tilered bows. A formula could at best be considered training wheels to simply closely monitoring the condition of the wood and adjusting as needed. Steve

Offline Justin Snyder

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Re: Just for the record
« Reply #11 on: May 15, 2007, 12:58:25 pm »
I think of it as a measuring stick.  I can eyeball and tell you about what 1 1/4" is. But if I use a tape measure I can be more consistant.  :-\ Justin
Everything happens for a reason, sometimes the reason is you made a bad decision.


SW Utah

DCM

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Re: Just for the record
« Reply #12 on: May 15, 2007, 01:21:12 pm »
Steve,

Sorry, I was speaking about the Supertiller spreadsheet thingy.  Your mass formula thing makes lots of sense, and I have used it, not so much to make the bow but to qualify and assess a finished bow.

Offline DanaM

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Re: Just for the record
« Reply #13 on: May 15, 2007, 01:30:31 pm »
I down loaded the supertiller thingy also, one look and I deleted it ;D
Steve I have your excel program that I like its not complex and yields got info
especially for a beginner like me. Keep up the good work. Your writing a chapter for TBB 4 aren't you?
I sure hope so and look forward to it.

DanaM
"Prosperity is a way of living and thinking, and not just money or things. Poverty is a way of living and thinking, and not just a lack of money or things."

Manistique, MI

Offline tom sawyer

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Re: Just for the record
« Reply #14 on: May 15, 2007, 02:11:52 pm »
Weighing a bow is pretty high tech alright.
Lennie
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